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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Help - make my counter argument concise

42 replies

Sallyh87 · 21/06/2023 16:30

I am about to go back home after along time. My sister is very vocal about being pro trans, she shouts down anyone who disagrees with her (about anything not just this issue!). I don’t want to just nod my head this time.

So please help me with any excellent argument or statistics you have.

I just keep talking about my daughters and safe spaces etc but she seems to just focus on being nice to people the protected characteristics etc

Thanks all for any help.

OP posts:
kelsaycobbles · 21/06/2023 16:34

Being female is a protected characteristic

And the equality act is clear that transwomen are not women for all situations- there are exceptions and this is being used increasingly

Your sister needs to be kind to everyone and to work within the confines of the equality act not make up her own version and not ignore one group for another

Myalternate · 21/06/2023 16:35

Isn’t sex one of the protected categories? If so, tell her to be nice to you.

NotHavingIt · 21/06/2023 16:39

Sex is real and sex matters, especilly to women and girls on account of some of their physical vulnerabilities. You cannot change sex no matter how you present or what you feel. Sex is instinctively recognised.

We have singles sex spaces in certain types of situation to ensure dignity and privacy for the female sex, and to ensure fair and meaningful competition.

There is no reason why there should not be third spaces and categories to ensure all have a space which rrecognises the need for dignity and privacy as well as safety, and fairness.

You don't liberate one group by colonising the spaces of another group, you create your own. and what of women from religious groups who simply would not be permitted a public life if they could not guarantee single sex spaces? Should they be excluded instead?

Not everyone accepts the concept of gendr identity, not does everyone have a gender identity. This is a personal and private belief that should not be imposed upon others.

You could ask her what she understands about Queer Theory. She probably is unaware of the roots of TRA thinking.

Gender is simply reinforcing sexist stereotypes, not eliminating them. Can she not see that?

dapsnotplimsolls · 21/06/2023 16:40

Ask her why she thinks single-sex spaces exist.

F0XCUB7 · 21/06/2023 16:41

If you don't even know what you think and have to ask people here then do you actually believe in anything?

NotHavingIt · 21/06/2023 16:43

I was at a new concert hall in my city a few weeks ago. It had implememented a system of toilets that was proportionate for everyone who needed to use a toilet facility.

It had a female block of toilets, a male block of toilets and a gender neutral toilet for those that needed it. Simple!

Women deserve kindness too - and so do young girls. Does your sister have a daughter? How would she feel about sending her daughter into a public toilet on her own if she knew there might be men in there?

NotHavingIt · 21/06/2023 16:44

F0XCUB7 · 21/06/2023 16:41

If you don't even know what you think and have to ask people here then do you actually believe in anything?

She's asking for some clear and concise arguments. not everyone is confident in that way - especially when confronted by a dominating bully who shouts down other people.

ChaToilLeam · 21/06/2023 16:46

I’d approach it this way:

Is it fair and right that men can declare themselves women, and compete in sports against them, and take prizes meant for women?

Is it fair and right that men can declare themselves women, and enter changing rooms next to women and girls?

Is it fair and right that male
criminals can declare themselves women, and be housed alongside female prisoners, who are unable to go anywhere else?

I’d take these three examples which particularly highlight the pernicious idiocy of this ideology. “Nice” doesn’t help anyone here!

Sallyh87 · 21/06/2023 16:47

NotHavingIt · 21/06/2023 16:44

She's asking for some clear and concise arguments. not everyone is confident in that way - especially when confronted by a dominating bully who shouts down other people.

Thank you 🙏that’s exactly right.

OP posts:
Sistanotcista · 21/06/2023 16:50

NotHavingIt · 21/06/2023 16:39

Sex is real and sex matters, especilly to women and girls on account of some of their physical vulnerabilities. You cannot change sex no matter how you present or what you feel. Sex is instinctively recognised.

We have singles sex spaces in certain types of situation to ensure dignity and privacy for the female sex, and to ensure fair and meaningful competition.

There is no reason why there should not be third spaces and categories to ensure all have a space which rrecognises the need for dignity and privacy as well as safety, and fairness.

You don't liberate one group by colonising the spaces of another group, you create your own. and what of women from religious groups who simply would not be permitted a public life if they could not guarantee single sex spaces? Should they be excluded instead?

Not everyone accepts the concept of gendr identity, not does everyone have a gender identity. This is a personal and private belief that should not be imposed upon others.

You could ask her what she understands about Queer Theory. She probably is unaware of the roots of TRA thinking.

Gender is simply reinforcing sexist stereotypes, not eliminating them. Can she not see that?

Love this description - its thoughtful and easily understood.

NotHavingIt · 21/06/2023 17:02

Sistanotcista · 21/06/2023 16:50

Love this description - its thoughtful and easily understood.

😎

LonginesPrime · 21/06/2023 17:06

She's asking for some clear and concise arguments. not everyone is confident in that way - especially when confronted by a dominating bully who shouts down other people

Its such a sprawling topic that it's hard to give concise advice on such a multifaceted subject, though.

OP, I think if I were preparing to potentially go head to head with someone without knowing where the conversation would take me, I would go back to first principles and examine what I believe in terms of fundamentals, and then that gives me (1) some guidance as to the kind of counter-arguments I might want to form and (2) confidence in my own opinions on which to build.

So, for me personally, I would be thinking:

  • I believe that gender ideology is a belief system and based on faith as opposed to scientific fact.
  • I know that as such, and pursuant to the Forstater case, my lack of belief in gender ideology is protected under the Equality Act 2010. Although the act itself obviously doesn't apply to an argument with my sibling, it provides useful guidance in setting a tone for the discussion.
  • Similarly, since lack of belief in gender ideology is protected and worthy of respect, so is my sibling's belief in gender ideology.
  • Therefore, we should be able to have a civilised discussion about the issues while ultimately respecting each other's right to hold contrasting beliefs.

I think if you approach it more like you're sister has converted to a new religion as opposed to anyone needing to be right or wrong, it can be easier to accept that some of her views might seem illogical or counterintuitive. She can't force you to believe what she wants any more than you can force her. Because it is essentially a philosophical belief akin to religion.

Neither of you is going to convince the other you're right about this, so I find that managing my expectations in terms of that can really help to manage the stress around these kinds of conversations.

parietal · 21/06/2023 17:07

asking questions is often the best way to gently change minds. ChaToil's list is good.

Ask why swimming pools have different changing rooms for male and female - is it because we have different brains, or different physical bodies?

And ask what she thinks happens to a person's physical body when they become trans? does their actual body change? their bones? their height? even if they aren't taking any hormones? you can then point out that 90% of transwomen have no surgery.

Maddy70 · 21/06/2023 17:11

Sallyh87 · 21/06/2023 16:30

I am about to go back home after along time. My sister is very vocal about being pro trans, she shouts down anyone who disagrees with her (about anything not just this issue!). I don’t want to just nod my head this time.

So please help me with any excellent argument or statistics you have.

I just keep talking about my daughters and safe spaces etc but she seems to just focus on being nice to people the protected characteristics etc

Thanks all for any help.

Why is your opinion more important than hers ?

You don't have to agree.
sounds like a shitty visit if you are already planning an argument

Why don't you just say. We have different views and you don't wish to spoil the visit

OhHolyJesus · 21/06/2023 17:26

To be extreme and concise I would think of some simple one-liners such as

  1. Well I'm against gay and autistic kids being sterilised (see Time to Think by Hannah Barnes for the stats)
  1. Stonewall Law isn't the actual law (see Akua Reindorf's report for more)
  1. Mermaids is a disgraced charity, they are under investigation and lied in court (search this board for more)

All are provocative statements and will inflame rather than de-escalate the situation but you should think for ways to challenge her (I expect) repeated arguments mantras.

You're probably not going to change her mind but I would enter into this as you're not aiming to, but you're also not changing yours as you are well-informed and unbending when faced with an aggressive and unscientific pro-trans stance, whether a relative or not.

The suicide stats can be discounted (27 strong survey of self selected people) the claims of marginalisation and oppression can be undermined (only 5,000 have GRCs and there is still legal protections for them, and those who don't, same as everyone else with a PC, plus the process has been made easier and cheaper under this government). There is no new science and no scientific or legal consensus on 'gender identity' (only 'gender reassignment' is recognised under U.K. law and admittedly that that is weakly defined).

Be firm, clear and evidence based. There is now so much evidence - puberty blocker studies that show the how bone density reduces, studies that show suicides increase after genital surgery, whistle blowers and Detransitioners, court cases, case and the GIDS closure - all this can be said to counter any claim made.

OhHolyJesus · 21/06/2023 17:30

And also, try this:

statsforgender.org/

ScrollingLeaves · 21/06/2023 17:48

Is it fair that a woman already disadvantaged in society, who has often been abused by men, who is in prison is told she must share her prison with men who are identifying as, or saying that they are, women.

(When she says how dare you say transwomen are a danger to women, have a list of dangerous transwomen prisoners / criminals to show they are as likely as other men to be bad)

Is it fair that male crimes are being recorded as womens?
Males commit 98% of violent crimes.

Is it fair that make/transwomen sports are allowed to compete against women? Is she says well it’s fair because they lower testosterone, ask if they shrink their skeletons, their lung capacity, their height etc? And ask how it is that they were mediocre in the male class but win in the female class? Ask if their testosterone is reduced to the level of women’s. If she says what about different physical advantages among women who compete against each other, remind her that whatever the differences between them nothing compares to the differences between women and men.

Ask if it is right that transwoman could be given the job of washing a disabled girl or woman when that girl or woman ir their family have expressed that they want female only care?

Ask if is right that women in hospital wards should not be allowed the dignity and privacy of a women only ward? Remind her that a woman was raped by a transwomen and the police were told no women were on the ward. Transwomen can be given their own room for their safety and dignity.

Ask her is a raped woman should have to be in a group counselling session with a male/ transwoman present and listening?
Tell that a transwoman victim of rape may be allowed in a private counselling session, one for transwomen, or one for male victims.

Ditto domestic abuse.

Sallyh87 · 21/06/2023 18:23

Thanks all, brilliant! I am not an argumentative person by nature and I feel a bit steam rolled over by her sometimes.

it all seems very intuitive and logical to me and that probably makes it worse to argue my point. Saying obviously doesn’t quite cut it!

OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 21/06/2023 18:23

Well. To be honest, in situations like this I'd just not bother. If someone is high on their own self righteous ness it's only going to lead to arguments. I'd just ignore and refuse to discuss, tbh.

ArabeIIaScott · 21/06/2023 18:24

The most I might say is an observation like 'you don't listen and you seem extreme on this subject, so I'm not willing to discuss it with you'.

Sallyh87 · 21/06/2023 18:26

ArabeIIaScott · 21/06/2023 18:23

Well. To be honest, in situations like this I'd just not bother. If someone is high on their own self righteous ness it's only going to lead to arguments. I'd just ignore and refuse to discuss, tbh.

Fair point but I feel this is one point I am actually willing to argue (if I am able!). I think the more people who do the more in the normal language it is.

Im just not particularly good at it and I think I always sound bigoted or at least people make me feel that way.

OP posts:
QueenHippolyta · 21/06/2023 18:37

Tell your sister that same-sex attracted Lesbian women like me are now forced to include transwomen who are bio men in our women -only social groups.
This isn't nice or fair it's colonization and I hate it!

LonginesPrime · 21/06/2023 18:54

I think I always sound bigoted or at least people make me feel that way.

See, this is why I think going back to basics is really important - so you can remind yourself that not subscribing to gender ideology as just as valid as believing in it.

If anyone accuses you of being a bigot, I would pass it back to them - how is that bigoted? What did you find was unreasonable about what I said? Can you explain what you mean by that? And so on.

Ourladycheesusedatum · 21/06/2023 18:59

Sallyh87 · 21/06/2023 18:23

Thanks all, brilliant! I am not an argumentative person by nature and I feel a bit steam rolled over by her sometimes.

it all seems very intuitive and logical to me and that probably makes it worse to argue my point. Saying obviously doesn’t quite cut it!

I have two go to's
If there is a Male member of your family, brother, uncle, dad.
Then the obvious question is if he changes gender and wants to come in your swimming session, changing rooms, etc. Will you be ok with seeing them naked.

And
I wonder how our parents decided which one of them would get pregnant and look after us.

If either of those help, great, if not sorry.

CharlotteSometimes1 · 21/06/2023 19:02

To not believe in queer theory doesn’t make you anti trans any more than not believing in Christianity makes you anti Christian.