Help - make my counter argument concise

[Sallyh87]

I am about to go back home after along time. My sister is very vocal about being pro trans, she shouts down anyone who disagrees with her (about anything not just this issue!). I don’t want to just nod my head this time.

So please help me with any excellent argument or statistics you have.

I just keep talking about my daughters and safe spaces etc but she seems to just focus on being nice to people the protected characteristics etc

Thanks all for any help.

I was going to suggest the same thing. It doesn’t matter how reasonable you are or how rock solid your statistics and facts are - a person who argues with emotion and resorts to shouting isn’t someone you can get through to.

Id be doing the let’s agree to disagree on this sis.

Glad it's not just me who was thinking that- I mean, surely you know why you think what you do, it seems a bit strange to ask for others to articulate your thoughts for you?!

Well it’s MumsNet, a great community of women who can help each other.

I’ve been on here for many years (though many name changes). I’ve asked advice on how to advocate for my myself in maternity care, how to talk to my boss and many other things. I also even advised on parking matters!

I know exactly what I think but being able to articulate something is very different. Anyway, did not mean to start any kind of argument just wanted some of these ladies who are better than me at putting word together to help.

Okay. Then in general - stick to one or two points, don't try to debate the whole issue all at once.

Allow silences.

Remember to breathe.

Ask questions.

Keep returning to the basic facts: You are allowed to disagree, you are allowed to believe there are only two sexes, you are allowed to stand up for women's rights.

Humans can't change sex. We're not clownfish. I will never agree otherwise so don't both trying to make me. You can have your bonkers view, let me have me sane one. Now, what's for tea?

Language: words about women being excised means there will be no words to describe their reality.

Children: being encouraged to believe they may be in the wrong bodies, and affirmed if they think they are, leads to their mental and physical harm. Research shows that if on the other hand they are left to grow up, most desist.

Views aside, your sister sounds like a bit of a nightmare. Can’t you just cancel ?

Strongly agree with the advice to just pick one or two topics - otherwise it’s hard to get a proper focus.

I’d ask lots of questions (if it comes up). I’d be really interested to understand eg whether people genuinely believe that transpeople can change sex, and if not, what do they think it means when people say they do. What makes someone non-binary (or trans) rather than just not conforming to sex-based stereotypes, do you know anyone who conforms to all sex-based stereotypes? How much non-conformity is allowed before you ‘need’ (claim?) a different label? What do you think about Hannah Arensman being forced to leave her sport, aged 24? What about the ‘women’s cycle races with 3 bio-men on the winners’ rostrum? (Mishy feel free to answer if you’re reading)

I found this debate got a lot easier once I stopped trying to be polite and refused to use any of their language. So never “transwomen” always “men who claim they are women”. It makes understanding your own point of view much clearer in your head, in my experience.

You may, of course, then experience language policing, which can be countered by pointing out that they get to choose their own language and not yours.

But the reality is that you won’t change anyone’s mind by being combative. The way to get through to someone is to ask them questions, I think.

Ask at what point do they think a transitioning man actually becomes a woman.

Ask whether they believe stating he’s a woman actually will change a man’s behaviour.

How can a man, who has only experienced life as a man know what it actually feels like to be a woman?

How does she think it must have felt to the girls in the changing room when the person they had known for years as Will Thomas was standing there with an erection?

I still don’t think you’ll get an admission you’re right. She’ll probably get angry and go into denial. But you might sow a seed of doubt in her mind, which is probably all that’s needed in the longer term.

Is 'be kind or be shitty' really all you guys have?

Why not give us some actual arguments about why it is good to:
sterilise kids
put rapists in female prisons
assume that any man who says 'I'm a woman' is true trans and not making it up

Just one good one.

Simply?

1. Humans can't change sex.
2. If she wants to pretend they can, that's up to her.
3. She doesn't have the right to demand that you or anyone else join in the pretence.

If I identify as a cat and I feel unwell, should you take me to the vet? Is it bigoted to suggest I should go to the doctor because I am human?

Why is it considered racist for a white person to identify as black, but not sexist for a man to identify as a woman?

Why is identifying as the opposite sex any more legitimate than the above examples? How do you explain feeling like the opposite sex without referring to gender stereotypes?

How do you define being "trans" or a "true trans person"? In my mind being transgender means identifying as that which you are not. And no individual or group should be forcing a non-reality onto society. We reserve the right to acknowledge reality and the consequences of ignoring it.

What is "transphobia"? If it is not going along with a trans person's reality, then is disagreeing with e.g. a flat-earther also transphobic?

These are some questions you could put to her.

If I identify as a cat and I feel unwell, should you take me to the vet? Is it bigoted to suggest I should go to the doctor because I am human?

To be fair, the vet is probably going to have a better grasp of biological reality at this point, so you might actually end up with more appropriate treatment from the vet than from a doctor who affirms you as a cat.

@LonginesPrime lol😂

Say this to her every time she raises the issue;
''I go back home to visit family, not be harassed by someone with an agenda. We have to agree to disagree, now let it go.''
And make sure you say it in front of other family members.

in an ideal world we’d all be entitled to our views and different views would be allowed around the table without being shouted down. It’s probably best not to bring them up. Sounds however like you actually want this fight. Maybe she does too? I’d honestly just let it rest. It’ll get nasty and you will never end up saying all the things you’d like to or being the calm rational arguer we’d all love to be. Sounds like she’ll wind you up which means all she will be getting from you is anger.

Adding to this. Sibling anger is an accumulation of every single time you’ve pissed one another off from when you were born. Is it worth it or is it better to accept that neither of you will change and to move on ?