My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Meerkitkat · 01/06/2023 18:27

Elle est une Tit, as the French say. Possibly.

OldCrone · 01/06/2023 18:31

I read that earlier. I can't see anything in there that explains why she thinks that any male people belong in women's prisons.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 01/06/2023 18:32

I had my eye roll ready, as soon as I saw her name 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

megletthesecond · 01/06/2023 18:39

I used to think she was smart and a feminist. How wrong I was.

nilsmousehammer · 01/06/2023 18:46

Silly woman.

Nellodee · 01/06/2023 18:55

I think she forgot to mention that if it wasn’t for the furore kicked up about trans prisoners in female prisons, Isla Bryson would be in there right now. I’m sure she couldn’t possibly have omitted this fact on purpose. And I’m sure she didn’t mention Barbie because this wasn’t an article about Ireland.

Women in prison suffer because of lots of causes that are difficult to solve, so let’s not bother solving the really fucking easy problems, like not putting males in the female estate. Great argument.

EmilyDickinson · 01/06/2023 19:02

It is worth following up and reading the links within the article that show where the writer has taken her facts from.

For instance the statement that only a few (I think 6 or 7) of the recorded sexual assaults (I think that the article says there were 97 in total) in women’s prisons were perpetrated by trans women.

When you follow that link it leads to a freedom of information request and answer about these assaults.

The government is able to state how many assaults were by trans women, which for their purposes is those in the process of transitioning from a man to a woman, but who don’t actually have a gender recognition certificate.

They were unable to answer the question how many assaults in women’s prisons were committed by people born male because those who have a GRC are deemed female and the assault would not be recorded as being by a male or a transwoman but simply by a woman. (I paraphrase)

EmilyDickinson · 01/06/2023 19:05

It also occurred to me that some of the assaults could have been perpetrated by male staff or visitors.

Boiledbeetle · 01/06/2023 19:08

Well she wins the prize for managing to completely confuse as to whether she is taking about actual real biological men or actual real biological women in that with some references to trans male and trans female


and finding trans male prisoners in Holloway who had gone completely unrecorded by the system.

I assumed she meant here that men had been found in the women's estate unrecorded which is totally not on. Until later

where trans female prisoners have become synecdoche for the elemental threat biological women will always face from biological men

And I realised she was using trans male to talk about women in a women's prison. Of course they went unnoticed in the 1980s they weren't a thing.On

And I don't give a shit about the statistics, or the crimes or their chances of causing harm to women. Men should fuck off out of the female prison estate. I don't give a shiny shit how they identify.

Women, even bad ones, deserve to serve their sentence without men in there with them.

ResisterRex · 01/06/2023 19:09

Good job we don't have a swear jar in this house as my first thought was: FOTTFSOFAFOSM

ErrolTheDragon · 01/06/2023 19:10

Saying something is 'upside down' when most people think it's now the right way up is merely indicative of the speaker's anomalous perspective.

puffyisgood · 01/06/2023 19:23

I bet she'd worked her way through more than one of Waitrose's 'recommended wines for June 2023' before gushing that particular kidney stone of wisdom.

I couldn't bear to read too closely but a fair bit of it seemed to me to boil down to the classic, "there are lots of other injustices in the world/in prisons specifically, so why on earth not allow this one too?". the old ones are indeed the best ones.

GrumpyPanda · 01/06/2023 19:25

Also, the old trick of reducing everything down to threats and threat jewels. How about the right to privacy and dignity, or don't female prisoners deserve either?

PonyPatter44 · 01/06/2023 19:40

Transwomen offenders don't belong in womens prisons. Firstly because such a high proportion of TW offenders are convicted sex offenders. Secondly, because a thumping majority of women in prison have been victims of male violence, and their right to live in a safe and decent environment has to trump the feelings of one or two male prisoners, no matter how strong those feelings may be.

Transwomen prisoners are kept safe in the male estate. The vast majority of them live on Vulnerable Prisoner wings, or in designated sex offender prisons. This concentration of TW prisoners can cause its own set of problems, but they don't affect or concern women prisoners.

Transmen are suitably kept in the female estate, and I can't ever see that changing. Noone would want to sign off the board that put a transman into the male estate and they turn up brutally raped. You may well ask why the same reasoning that won't put transmen into the male estate can't be applied to prevent transwomen even being considered for the female estate...

nilsmousehammer · 01/06/2023 19:43

Why make poor men sad by not providing them with access to non consenting female bodies on demand? The price is only a few rapes ffs, it's not like it matters. or that it's happening to anyone I care about

Out of her little tree.

Forwarder · 01/06/2023 19:50

Even though trans identified men are no longer supposed to be housed in the female prison estate, Zoe says there are six still there.

Prior to the public getting wind of this wheeze, trans identified males were routinely housed in female prisons. Karen White was just one of many.

And isn't kind how Zoe refers to 'her' crimes? Morally superior indeed.

EdithStourton · 01/06/2023 20:00

I got as far as 'cis' and gave up.
I didn't want to throw my phone across the room.

maltravers · 01/06/2023 20:16

She’s such a handmaiden. Maybe she would like to try sharing a cell with a TW prisoner for research purposes/a bit of lived experience (only a 50% chance they’re in for sex offences!), they could let her out once a day for some history lessons on Elizabeth Fry https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Fry

Elizabeth Fry - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Fry

Redshoeblueshoe · 01/06/2023 20:17

puffyisgood I was going to say that I used to watch ZW doing review of the papers on Sky News, this was quite a while ago. I used to think she was funny. Then one day I realised that she was as pissed as a newt. Strangely enough I don't think they had her back.
Isn't she mates with Bilious Bragg ?

maltravers · 01/06/2023 20:17

That would make sense Red Shoe.

Theladyinluna · 01/06/2023 20:17

OldCrone · 01/06/2023 18:31

I read that earlier. I can't see anything in there that explains why she thinks that any male people belong in women's prisons.

Quite.

MimiGC · 01/06/2023 20:22

I'd like to ask Zoe Williams directly- would she be ok with herself or her daughter being locked in a room with a male stranger, with no way of getting out? Her answer of course would be no. So why is it ok for other women?

dropthevipers · 01/06/2023 20:40

question to no one in particular-given that the Guardian has been a complete basket case for years now, why bother reading it?

Florissante · 01/06/2023 20:41

Williams is a moron.

ValancyRedfern · 01/06/2023 20:52

I knew as soon as I saw her name how hideous this would be.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.