Cancel Culture and The Chilling Effect - a thread to share your experiences

[ArabeIIaScott]

Does the 'chilling effect' or 'cancel culture' affect you?

This is an anonymous forum, so we can speak relatively openly. But how do we speak in real life?

Are you comfortable to talk about gender/sex openly?
Would you raise it at work?
Would you/do you raise it with your child's school?
At home?
On social media?

Are women able to speak about these issues?
Have you done so and experienced consequences?

I think the effects of these issues have far reaching consequences that we really have hardly seen reported or looked at so far. How's it affecting society, women in society, relations between groups?

Thanks.

Are you comfortable to talk about gender/sex openly?
No. I only talk about it with dh, and he largely agrees with me but doesn't fully get it tbh. I avoid the subject around 17yo dd, who is gender non-conforming and has been pro TWAW, but has been fairly quiet about it lately.
Would you raise it at work?
Not at the moment. I'm a teacher and I was very glad when my school decided not to affirm any gender or name changes without permission from parents. We have a brand new Head and I have no idea what his stance will be.
Would you/do you raise it with your child's school?
Not sure. If I felt it was necessary, I guess.
At home?
See above
On social media?
I have slightly dipped my toe in and liked GC posts.

And to be faced with the limitations of your courage in the face of this.

This.

I am very very careful about what I say in a work context and generally do everything I can to avoid the issue coming up so I don't have to hide my views if that makes sense?! I would struggle to lie but equally am very nervous about talking to clients about it.

Personally I am very vocal when I know I'm with fellow GC people but am very cautious until I know how people feel.

I daren't bring it up with my absolute best friend in the whole world as she's got teenagers and is just so bloody nice I can't risk that she's all "be kind" and we'll fall out over it

Are you comfortable to talk about gender/sex openly? No. I talk about it with my husband and a close friend but that’s it.
Would you raise it at work? No. I used to be a teacher and still work in education. Too risky.
Would you/do you raise it with your child's school? I am a governor and proud to say I put a stop to Mermaids becoming involved at the school.
At home? Yes but my husband thinks I’m overreacting and my children are very young so it’s not on their radar. I do tell them there are two sexes but people can dress in any clothes they like.
On social media? No

I really wish I had the courage to speak up more - but I don’t. My children and I rely on my salary. If I spoke out I fear I could lose my job.

This is exactly what the activists want

Woman opens mouth to speak
"

                                        ! "

Only then will they be happy

Fortunately this faculty member was supported by the union and got an independent investigation and was exonerated. But still…

Wasn’t it Kissinger who said Middle Eastern politics was nothing compared to campus politics?

This ^^

It all seems akin to the ducking stools and witch burning of yesteryear. Accusations from others, social ostracisation and the ultimate punishment & death carried out with glee by the accusers. I struggle to see any difference.

And to be faced with the limitations of your courage in the face of this.

Yes. I often feel I am a coward. But having been through about a tenth of what Professor Stock has been through, I know what it takes out of one.

While I am infinitely grateful that people like Riley Gaines, Prof Stock, Maya F, et al are speaking out and expending such a huge amount of energy being at the forefront of this, and while I do admire their courage, patience, resilience and eloquence, I think it's somewhat counterproductive for this to be framed as these women speaking out by free choice because they're brave and that the rest of us should be more like them.

None of these women took up this fight by choice - they were forced into it because they essentially lost their careers in various ways and were pushed to the point where they had nothing left to lose. I'm not saying that to diminish their amazing achievements as I admire them greatly, but it's not the same for the rest of us because I know I'd happily speak out if the decision of whether I speak out or put food on the table had already been made for me.

I'm another one with a husband who was initially worried about how "obsessed" I was about this business but he's now fully on board. DS is too, after a brief period when he had 'gender fluid' friends and we had to use individual pronouns for them. We agreed not to talk about it for a while until he'd woken up.

Most of his current close friends are GC, too, but they all mask it, unless with people they know feel the same way.

I don't have any problems talking about it at work, but then even though it's quite a big company, so far as I know it's never been anything that we need to deal with.

We are getting a new HR person next week. She's coming from a bigger company so may be captured. I am pretty senior, so think I'll just ask her outright if she's planning on anything like introducing pronouns in emails footers.

Are you comfortable to talk about gender/sex openly?

No. Always wary.

Would you raise it at work?
I did once. A situation had arisen (customer had complained about use of pronouns in an email from a team member) and junior colleagues were confidently saying good riddance, delete him, bigot, transphobe etc.

I pointed out that we needed to understand his concerns (did he think it was compelled rather than colleague's free choice), and that we needed to be seen by all our customers as an organisation they want to do support...not just appeal to a subset. I mentioned that getting a complaint was very helpful, because ten times more people don't complain, they just go somewhere else.
The junior team members were horrified, and one of them actually spoke to me separately to tell me that her (young white privileged female) coworker had been very upset by my approach.

I spoke about this in supervision with my own manager. We had a good, sensible conversation, and about a week later my manager asked me to raise the issue as a discussion point in our full management meeting. I felt absolutely sick, but couldn't really say no.

At that management meeting, I very cautiously outlined the complaint that had come in and the response from junior colleagues, and indicated that I didn't think our company should be taking a political position, particularly on such a divisive issue.

Response from my management team colleagues was

a) young beardy man basically horrified with my attempt at balanced discussion, telling me that our strong diversity policies were one of the reasons a new colleague (gay male) had joined the company.
b) very well respected female colleague telling me "but this is very real to some of my friends GreenGoose", and generally being no debate. I did not mention that it was very real to me too, with DD declaring herself to be trans at the time.

I made the point that being seen to support an ideology was a very different thing from just being kind and supportive to people, but no-one wanted to engage.

And so I left it at that. It was too much of a risk to say anything more.

Would you/do you raise it with your child's school?
Yes if something gets me going. DD was in a lgbt club at school for a while and I should have really asked for more info, but she seems to be completely over the whole social contagion thing now, and seems happy being a lesbian.

At home?
Yes definitely. All the time. The kids think I'm a terrible transphobe but haven't actually managed to come up with any example of what it is that I am wrong about. My partner thinks I'm right but doesn't understand why I think it's such a big issue.

On social media?
No. I like very occasional posts, but cautiously.

I dropped out of Guiding because I was about to be dismissed anyway for refusing to conform and for talking about GGs policy negatively on FB.

A site of some sort where we could voice and record (anonymously) our silencing, self-censorship and fear, especially for those of us who work in areas such as education or welfare, would be really helpful.

Good idea, Yet. I'll have a wee think. I wonder if any existing groups could host it?

Are you comfortable to talk about gender/sex openly?
To an extent, yes. Many of my friends are very GC indeed and we enjoy talking about the issues. There are a couple of other friends who are very woke and I can see us drifting apart. In fact that's probably already happening, but I'm not actually terribly concerned as I'm making new, GC, friends.

Would you raise it at work?
I'm self-employed so not bothered about being fired and, yes, if the subject comes up, I'm happy to talk about it openly. I had the pleasure of peaking one female client, who had been a big supporter of the Lib Dems by telling her what she was really backing. The sound of her horrified squeak when I explained the issue around changing rooms still makes me smile. If a new client were to get arsey with me, I'd simply stop working for them.

Would you/do you raise it with your child's school?
No kids but if we'd had them then yes I would.

At home?
Absolutely. OH is as GC as me, is very outspoken and doesn't care who he offends so when we're at family gatherings he talks about it more than me. I'm not as much of a gobshite as him but have always had a fairly mulish disposition so am fine with him speaking out. Only two of his family are woke and we don't see much of them anyway, so generally the conversations are agreeable. My closest family member, my brother, is gay and very supportive of GC women.

On social media?
Given the viciousness shown towards women, it took me ages to post anything GC on facebook but I finally thought 'Oh sod it' and posted a few links. Not much was said, though what was said was in agreement, but I had a few 'likes' from women I suspected were GC and it was nice to confirm that. On twitter I go by an alias and mainly read, but like a lot of posts and comments.

On the whole, I've come to the point where I'm in my 60s, all out of 'be kind' hormones, don't much care what people think of me and am fed up of being silenced.

Good idea, Yet. I'll have a wee think. I wonder if any existing groups could host it?

Thanks :) I was thinking of something like Holly's site.

I guess the gender-critical academics could possibly host one for academics and the transgender trend group for education and welfare - but I also imagine it would be a lot of work.

YetAnotherSpartacus · Today 10:04
A site of some sort where we could voice and record (anonymously) our silencing, self-censorship and fear, especially for those of us who work in areas such as education or welfare, would be really helpful.

ArabeIIaScott · Today 10:18
Good idea, Yet. I'll have a wee think. I wonder if any existing groups could host it?

OK I will freely admit I'm gatecrashing here but...

in respect to having a permanent record of the current silencing of women if anyone feels like putting their experiences, concerns, feelings, annoyance etc on the record in a slightly different way like oh I don't know.....poetry maybe there is another thread on this very board that is currently serving as a receptacle for such poems for volume two of a very wonderful book written by some of the women on the FWR board.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4816472-a-mumsnet-thread-about-a-book-about-a-mumsnet-thread-under-the-duvet-of-darkness-written-by-the-women-of-mumsnet-thread-2?reply=126581957

As you were! (I shall slope off now and see if the e-book for volume one has gotten out of review status yet!)

Boiled x

Crash away, beetle!

😍😏

No, I am very careful who I talk to it about as you have no idea who's going to get crazy about it. Won't even "like" articles about it on facebook etc. Dh and I are on the same page, and my 9 year old will start to be taught the trans ideology at school next year so we're pre-prepping him to have his own thoughts about it so we don't get a brainwashed child coming home to scream at us that women can have penises etc. A group of blue/green haired students from the local uni were standing around with clipboards and I changed direction as I won't even risk them potentially asking questions about identity/trans etc.

Although it's good I can speak more freely on mumsnet now, I remember years ago when they would delete any and every comment that even hinted at offending transwomen, any kind of misgendering whatsoever, they had a very strict three strike policy and I once got a "strike" for quoting what a transwoman activist had said about murdering Terfs/terfs deserved to die and THEY were allowed to keep their comment but I was given a strike and a harshly worded message because I had quoted them and said how in the wolrd is that you being "kind"?!

Mumsnet have definitely 'softened' in their deletion policy but it seems to be luck of the draw some days. I think some moderators just read the post that's deleted and others seem to read up thread a bit before making their decision.

Totally agree with this.

I guess the gender-critical academics could possibly host one for academics...but I also imagine it would be a lot of work.

I would definitely be interested to see something like this, but it's also important to remember that not everyone who works in academia is an actual academic, there are plenty of GC other staff :)