Why is it socially acceptable to stereotype and vilify white women as a whole?

[TheTERFnextDoor]

I've seen this a lot recently, often from other white women bizarrely, and I don't understand why it's socially acceptable?

I think it goes without saying that in most groups, you get good and bad people. White women are surely no different in that respect? Yes, many of them are privileged, and they don't face the discrimination that other categories might. I accept that. However, that doesn't change the fact that they aren't some homogeneous mass of people, surely?

I am genuinely trying to learn here, so I'd appreciate all responses, particularly those that disagree

If in fact there is specific harmful behaviour that white women perpetuate and white men don't, then it is fair to criticise it.

And as well as this point, littered all over this thread, is ignorance, denial, deflection/whataboutery and minimisation of racism in general. Not to mention some degree of derision towards anti-racist practices and sentiment.

Racism exist

Racist white women exist

One example does not prove that any group is as a whole racists - although balance of probability, given how endemic racism is in society , suggests that it's likely in the uk

However it is never ok to blame or discriminate or disrespect an individual on account of average group behaviours

It works in any context
It's the basis of the site rules for talking about transgender individuals- talk about their actions but don't make generalisations

interesting article, thank you for posting it

I met Reni Eddo Lodge when she was a strident trans activist, campaigning to get rid of women only spaces. Didn’t think much of her powers of reasoning. I have absolutely no interest in reading her book.

Also, Reni Eddo Lodge is very middle-classed. She could do with examining her class privilege.

Are you assuming that people who disagree with you will not already have read this book. Or that reading it will magically change their position. I've read White Fragility and it's really hard to imagine how anyone can take it at all seriously. It's so weak and pious and full of assertions with no evidence to back them up beyond her own racist opinions.

Indeed. Sadism, power tripping, vengeance.

her = DiAngelo

I couldn't agree more with this

The idea of being born with some sort of original sin that can never be expunged and that you must make amends for throughout your life?

nah, not for me thanks.

and I think it's at the root of a lot of the 'identifying' we see these days, particularly people identifying into a different ethnic group to the one they actually come from. If people tell you you're tainted with original sin and there's nothing you can ever do about it, and if you're they type of person to take that kind of guff seriously, well, you are going to look for ways out, aren't you?

I suspected this. And I had to have a wry smile at her complaint of a lack of black football managers in the Scottish Premier League.

@BernardBlacksMolluscs absolutely. If you buy into this, you'll be terrified of being a Karen so a quick haircut/blue hairdye and change of pronouns to them/they and sorted, you've identified into oppression.

Indeed! Scotland needs to attract more people of African heritage to move there. It’s such a racist country- so full of white people.

And Asians. Asians make up the vast majority of the 4.5% of Scots who aren't white but telly drama tells me the promoted cops up here are black, as are two out of five of most people's uni friends.

This exactly.

I read it and the impression I got was that DiAngelo held some genuinely racist views, and didn't like that part of herself, so coped with it by asserting that all white people must secretly be the same. That way, she doesn't have to take individual responsibility

(Admit to being racist, white people. If you deny it, that makes you even more racist. If you question the logic behind it, you're a racist with white fragility. There's no possibility of innocence.)

The Guardian article posted made a number of good points (and some infuriatingly poor ones, for e.g. the terrible whiteness of scottish football), but apropos of this thread, take a look at one of the illustrations. behold the frigid white Karen living her life in black and white, clutching, I do declare, handkerchief

FrostyFifi · Today 08:43
@BernardBlacksMolluscs absolutely. If you buy into this, you'll be terrified of being a Karen so a quick haircut/blue hairdye and change of pronouns to them/they and sorted, you've identified into oppression.

There is so much wrong with this post I cannot begin.

The thing is, a lot of young people read this weakly reasoned and poorly evidenced stuff to rile themselves up and get all angry, and they don’t want to let go.

It’s written in a book! It must be true and authoritative!

If you write ‘Zeitgeist’ stuff, you’ll get a book deal, even if you aren’t that smart and what you say is nonsense. It’s going to sell. That’s what matters.

you don't think being told that they're irredeemably tainted makes people who believe it feel bad?

@AnalogueFondness
so have you read white fragility or are you happy to take someone’s word for it that it is poorly evidenced nonsense?

😂

Interestingly the article ends with this second to last sentence:

“We must see who benefits from their race, who is affected by negative stereotyping of theirs, and on whom power and privilege is bestowed – not just because of their race, but also their class and gender.”

I would agree with this, but those supposedly promoting the views of the article/book aren’t doing that. Pages ago I pointed out the people with structural systemic power in this country are private school educated, rich Oxbridge graduates, majority male, and of many races. But they’re hard to go after so let’s attack white women instead?

Maybe in the USA Karen is a name for rich women but here I would say it’s a much more working class name, and not necessarily a white name (not a “I have black relatives I’m not racist post but my Afro-carribean aunt is called Karen)

Working class women whatever their skin colour don’t have power or privilege in this country. I am willing to accept that a black working class women faces additional prejudice and barriers to me as a white (non Roma/traveller) working class women (I still maintain that a Roma/traveller working class women is the bottom of any pile).

it really really upsets me to hear middle class public schools educated men/boys call middle aged women who disagree with them Karen (race irrelevant) - it’s punching down

@BernardBlacksMolluscs
You can take the ‘irredeemably tainted’ viewpoint to the extreme, hold it up as a straw man and knock it down.

or you can take from it that you have probably held deeply prejudiced viewpoints and made deeply prejudiced decisions and maybe said some pretty awful things. Not because you are a racist but because you are operating within societal norms that work for you and everyone you associate.

can you - hand on heart - say that you have no ingrained bias?

of course people are going to dismiss White Fragility. That that will happen is a point well made within the book. This kind of stuff makes people feel shame and they want to get straight outta that pan.

So someone uplthread mused on whether ignorance is unintentional or actually intentional . i consider dismissing a text based on what someone online says about it crossing the line well into intentional ignorance.

👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿

Replacing them with vigilantism won't help (and in the long run it is those with less power that suffer more from this since racists and sexists can also mobilise themselves online).

Yes, I personally think women have more to lose than men, in a culture where it's common for people to be filmed and shared online, given the sexism and misogyny of the society we live in.

How/who pays the same as all other reparations are done. Paid from the nations treasury as payment from the government to qualified recipients. Same mechanism as the Covid payments the US government sent out.

The trans-Atlantic slave trade was an appalling act of exploitation, and the descendants are suffering the consequences to this day.

But there are billions of other people in the world descended from people who suffered murder, torture, and exploitation, and who are still affected by the consequences. If you are arguing for compensation from the US Treasury to anyone who can demonstrate descent via enslaved people, tell me why the US should not also be paying reparations to everyone in Vietnam, Laos, and Iraq?

And who is going to get the money? Who are the qualified recipients? Do all your grandparents have to be descended from slaves? Or 3, or 2, or 1? What if you appear white but are 75% of African descendent ? What if you are 75% white but appear black? What about all the Hispanic people living in the US, who are descended from African slaves, indigenous peoples and white colonialists? Do they get compensation? If not, why not? - conditions for slaves in Brazil were equally appalling and they are US citizens now.

I do believe in reparations, in the form of government action to address the ongoing effects of racism and colonialism, especially more investment in education. I have still to see any workable proposal for compensation to individuals. The practicalities are always glossed over, as above - "qualified recipients". OK, exactly who do you mean?