The Inclusion Delusion: FPFW video regarding women and sport

[Helleofabore]

Thank you FairPlay For Women. This looks to have just been published. Great timing and well known faces.

Mostly women athletes or women at grass level. Just for those who wonder if this discussion is not representative of actual women in sports.

Thank you for sharing. Good video.

This is great, thanks for sharing. Nice succinct video on why fairness for female athletes is important, from the experts.

Thank you for this

V good.

Quite shocked at the 45 men in women's cycling alone.

It's so not only a few!

Everyone must watch that video. Specially men. My take on this is, they steal the will to compete from women. Beyond words.

Definitely worth a watch. If it's not stopped now can you imagine what every female race will look like in 1, 2... 5 years? How long would it take before females are not included in the starting line up of competitors in female races?

I meant to say Competitions not races. But you know what I mean.

Thank you for link.

Really good video. Well done all the sports men and women speaking up.

https://reduxx.info/brazils-top-female-gamer-is-a-trans-identified-male-now-accused-of-sexting-with-a-minor/

Not just sport - anywhere there is a spade carved out for women

*space even!!!

I could do with a spade though

Posted on another thread but how are these important policies to be policed at grass roots level? There simply aren't the resources to determine unambiguously sex for local club/school sports.

my concern is at school level where teachers may be unwilling to risk preventing trans boys playing in girls sport because of the threat of contravening an inclusion policy of facing a backlash from pupils/parents. Should as well as the policies be unequivocal support for those that have to apply them?

The fact is that transboys playing in girls sports will kill those clubs. They rely on parents willing to pay fees and volunteer and there's going to be a really limited number who are willing to do this if there are boys playing against their daughters with the implications for fairness but also dignity (changing rooms) and safety (breaking of bones / necks with male advantage).

mids2019

Surely at school level the school of a pupil will know their sex?
Or are you saying that a school would knowingly cheat?
Or are you saying a pupil / their parents would knowingly cheat if the rules were clear?

I guess they could always ask for a birth certificate or some kind of doctor's certificate /DNA check?

We managed for decades separating girls and boys for sports, it isn't that hard really surely?

Also, you can tell boys from girls no matter what they wear when they hit puberty. Everyone will know.

Everyone will especially know if they're in changing rooms.

Even in my DD2s year 2 class the boys are already by and large taller - have you looked at the height charts for boys vs girls? But the difference isn't so great at this point that it matters if sport is mixed - but as soon as puberty hits there will be absolutely no question.

This idea that 'no-one can tell' is the most laughable bullshit I've ever heard. We're evolutionarily primed to tell. Dogs can tell. Even if people are polite enough not to point it out, they still know especially if they're female.

@TeenDivided

Good points. My fee though that if a trans girl approached a teacher asking to play in a girl's sports team the teacher will be placed in a dilema?

do they (a) say no and have to defend themselves when the head is emailed and potentially get labelled a transphobe? Suggest that the trans girl play for the boys and then be a facilitator to any bullying which may occur? or (b) allow the trans girl to compete with the girls and take any flack afterwards for breaking sporting rules?

I fear (b) may the more palatable option....

I think it actually takes strength for an organiser tournament to say 'your not a woman and can't compete' even if it is quite obvious they are trans. How can you definitely saying sight someone is not a woman without maybe a really obvious indicator like a bear?

It may the burden of proof lies with the organiser to prove someone is not a woman and that may be more difficult than it sounds at a local level.

great video. thanks for sharing.

I think all the sporting bodies coming out saying 'no' gives strength to teachers, as they can say 'higher sporting body bans it'.
But either way they can say 'evidence shows post puberty there is a difference. You need to stick to boys teams'.
Preventing boys from bullying a transgirl is not the girls problem to solve.

@TeenDivided

Good point about support coming from above and I think this may about cultural change where making fair decisions which in some opinion may be 'transphobic' becomes the norm. I think this is important because teachers etc. do not want to be in positions of fear when having to make team decisions etc.

I brought up the bullying example as I guess it will be an argument from the trans community that everyone is entitled to play sport but if you are forced to play with a team of the 'opposite' sex you will be subject to misgendering (man of the match etc.) and generally feel uncomfortable. There needs to be an education of boys in this instance about acceptance?

I think one of the challenges at least in girls football is that it is easy for the ref/crowd to call out a bad foul and get a red card issued but incredibly difficult to call out cheating by fielding a boy......

Oh I meant beard above

Once again, the thing that never happens, has happened.

Yes. If they don't want to get involved in the actual argument, they can just shrug and say it's not up to us, we've been told.

Also yes, the girls cannot be responsible for the boys' behaviour to another boy. Nor can they be provided as protection.

Boys will have to be taught to accept a gender non conforming boy. Hopefully there will be far fewer of them, because schools will not be allowed to socially transition children without a range of tick boxes.

It's a little odd, though, given that transactivists are always telling us how much more tolerant and accepting children are, but suddenly, when it comes to protecting girls spaces the boys turn into horrible bullies.

Then it needs to switch around and the burden of proof to be on the person wishing to participate.