Is girl guides single sex again?

[Chilledp]

Does anyone know if girl guides have applied some common sense yet? I.e. Just available for girls/ female children once again ?
I did look on their website but couldn't see any clarification. But that may just be me not being able to navigate to the right page, clicked on a few that I thought might clarify but couldn't find any info.
Thank you

While scout leaders can't share the fact that a child is trans without the trans child's permission, they should make sure that everyone is ok with mixed sharing

If the other children aren't allowed to be told that the child they will be sharing with is of the opposite sex, how can they consent? How do you ask if they are okay to share with the opposite sex while simultaneously not telling that someone is of the opposite sex?

Quite aside from the main issue which is that everyone - children, parents and society - is entrusting the adults to do the safeguarding. Not devolve responsibility onto children to have to speak up against mixed sharing, possibly earning the irritation of their peers and leaders if they do and feeling enormous pressure to not make a fuss, be kind etc. We know adults have enough trouble speaking up, it's really not fair to expect it of children.

There has been a backlash against GG policy and they are struggling financially- needing to sell off residential centres.
I wonder why?...

My daughter did exactly the same for beavers..all in a hall together overnight and then in a tent with all girls. But before they knew how many girls were attending the leader had approached me asking if I'd be happy if she was in a tent with boys. They're all under well under 8 so I had no issue with it from the sex characteristic point of view.
Over 8 absolutely not.

Thank you. That makes sense. I find it so confusing trying to work out what is stonewall law and what is actual law because most institutions especially schools, seem to accept stonewall law unthinking.. even when it's pointed out to them.

An example of 'Stonewall law' in Universities - womansplaceuk.org/2021/05/18/why-its-time-for-universities-to-break-ties-with-stonewall/

If the other children aren't allowed to be told that the child they will be sharing with is of the opposite sex, how can they consent? How do you ask if they are okay to share with the opposite sex while simultaneously not telling that someone is of the opposite sex?

Because if you have inform the children and their parents that you intend to run the camp with mixed accommodation, which scouts are required to do, then everyone (parents, children, leaders) has a chance to raise any concerns they may have. No one needs to have specifics of who their child is sharing with, just that it’s mixed accommodation.

if anyone - parents, children, or leaders - is unhappy, steps are taken to resolve this.

Isn't the issue that Scouts - the same as Guides - pretend that TWAW and TMAM so they don't admit it's shared accommodation because they worship at the altar of self-declared gender and not biological sex. I don't see any difference between the Scouts and the Guides on this. They're both fudging information and hoping parents don't know.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

I can't speak for the guides, but as a scout leader, we are just trying to give young people good, positive experiences, regardless of their sex or gender. We try to be open, while also respecting the wishes of all the young people. If mixed sex sleeping accommodation is a possibility, then parents and young people will be informed, and given a chance to discuss this/raise concerns and objections. No one is fudging information and hoping parents don't know.

Unfortunately no change yet
i left guiding over this issue

Budgie - do you mean that all the children & parents are informed if another child believes they are trans and explicitly asked if they are ok for a male child to share accommodation with their daughters?

"While scout leaders can't share the fact that a child is trans without the trans child's permission, they should make sure that everyone is ok with mixed sharing"

That's still not ok. Someone might be ok with mixed sharing because they want to be inclusive but if they know there is a male in the tent they maybe would not change their clothes in front of the others. Or may not discuss certain personal things eg periods they would be ok discussing with girls but be uncomfortable discussing with a boy present. Happy to be inclusive but not to be exposed. So even with consent to share they should be aware that they are sharing with a male or it's not actually consent. I'd go so far as to use the word violation

Budgie - do you mean that all the children & parents are informed if another child believes they are trans and explicitly asked if they are ok for a male child to share accommodation with their daughters?

I mean that if there is a need for mixed sex accommodation, parents will be informed of this. Parents will also be informed that a child is trans, if the child and parent gives permission for this.

But if they don't give permission, then the leaders will consider what the best way forward is. It may be that they provide separate accommodation for a trans child, they may ask the trans child if they are comfortable to share with their own sex (not gender), they may look at a whole range of possible scenarios to ensure that everyone is comfortable. And everything is risk assessed.

So they’re inventing their own law for the children, and using real law in the loosest possible way to give adult males access to them. All the while telling parents it’s single sex.

@Ofcourseshecan exactly

@budgiegirl it's that "if they give permission" so if they won't give permission to out them then you risk assess? I just don't see how it can be done. I was a guide and having a boy there would have limited how able to talk freely I felt. Lots of that talk happened in the tent or getting changed after an activity. To keep showers changing and tents single sex following a risk assessment then the trans kid is going to be feeling excluded from that chit chat. There is no solution.

Yes.

On one of the many discussions a scout leader laid out the safeguarding she had to apply because her little boy was going with her to camp.

But scouts are all boys.

Not necessarily, sometime mixed sex accommodation may be necessary/offered, but parents and children are informed, and given the chance to raise any concerns.

But scouts are all boys

Not for many years.

I don't think any child is in a position to make a genuine call on whether they are happy to share with someone of the opposite sex in the current climate. I've seen adult women too afraid to say they don't want to play a physical contact sport against transwomen. It's naive in the extreme to assume children are able to do it.

I don't think any child is in a position to make a genuine call on whether they are happy to share with someone of the opposite sex in the current climate

Which is why parents are also informed, and encouraged to discuss any concerns

@budgiegirl has summarised the difference between scouting and guiding very well - it’s about communicating with parents when mixed sex accommodation is being used.
I am leaving guiding at the end of this term and hope to join scouting after a year off for family reasons. I have been doing some basic turn up and join in volunteering at a scout troop for a few terms now and have been impressed with the approach HQ and the leaders took when one of the young people identified as non binary and they and their parents expressed concerns about camp accommodations. Initially mixed sex accommodation was offered and communicated to the parents - as far as I’m aware there was no back lash but the young person decided they would be most comfortable with their own space (tent) and that was that; the options were there and presented honestly to the parents from day one. No one was explicitly identified or needed to be.

Without these Guides days are numbered.

Talking to a few people working in outdoor pursuits since this was announced they are firmly of the opinion that it's the beginning of the end for the organisation.

To be able to run activities in the future the cost is going to be significantly higher to the point it could well be prohibitive. Or they will have to go begging to Scouts (who also have struggled with keeping hold of their centres in the last couple of years).

*Without these Guides days are numbered.

Talking to a few people working in outdoor pursuits since this was announced they are firmly of the opinion that it's the beginning of the end for the organisation.

To be able to run activities in the future the cost is going to be significantly higher to the point it could well be prohibitive. Or they will have to go begging to Scouts (who also have struggled with keeping hold of their centres in the last couple of years)*

It all depends, I suppose, on how much the Girl Guide Association depends on the income from these centres. It probably is the sign of financial difficulties, but may not be the end.

It probably won't mean that activities will cost more in the future. Many of the scout activity centres will allow guides to book there at the same, or very similar, prices to those charged to scouts.

I'm not aware of problems with scouts keeping hold of their centres. No doubt they all had issues following covid, but things certainly seem to be picking up again now.

Scouts have been selling off centres / properties over last few years as well

There aren't enough volunteers to run them presumably..
One radical way out if this mess would be to charge more and have volunteers paid for their time. Especially with things like site maintenance. What volunteers are expected to know plus training and admin is onerous.
It might make some parents value it more but would probably put it out of the reach of others.

Not since 1991.