Would you be concerned... 4 year old "trans"

[Ncdforthisagain]

Not sure I'm posting in the right place but would welcome advice as something that is sitting very uncomfortably with me.

I met a mum recently through mutual friends at a kids activity class. She seemed nice enough and very friendly and chatty. Her son is 5 and he is a lovely child. He was wearing a sparkly top and clip on earrings the first few times I met them - all good, he's only 5 and who am I to judge. However his mum dropped very casually in conversation that she thinks he has "trans issues". Again, I thought it was a bit of an odd comment but kept that thought to myself. More recently though, it now appears that the mum has transitioned the child to living as a girl, has changed his name and is actively referring to the child as her "daughter", "she" etc. The child is so young and it just strikes me as terribly damaging to do this to a tiny child. I have 2 young DC myself and I'm actually reeling that a parent could willingly do this. I'm prepared to get shot down (maybe unlikely on this board) but it just has my alarm bells ringing.

I'd speak up, say my mind. I don't want to support child-abuse in silence.

In a few years " but why didn't you say something? " will be heard a lot. So the silent ones better speak up or prepare a good answer to that question.

Whilst I agree in theory in practice speaking out can effect your relationships, job and in some cases, safety.
I'd only ever bring it up myself from a very matter of fact child development point, as I have some very stupid friends who are too dense to discuss it beyond #bekind and I save my energy and credibility for when it will matter most (have a relative being socially transed and it's most upsetting, but have to tread carefully as mother cuts off people for being terfs. Want to make sure she has some sane people around to help row back and not just cheerleading in an echo chamber)
It's hard. The mechanisms I have relied on for other safeguarding concerns are completely blind or broken in this case. I've seen this before with other safeguarding matters and what usually happens is when the shit hits the fan the lower level people are blamed. Like in ops case, the mother will be blamed, teachers etc. Those who should be overseeing safeguarding are shielded from responsibility.

@DobbysTeaCosy and that is why the stupidity perpetuates and very young children all the way up to the young adults are being catastrophically harmed. All it takes for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing. Those who can speak, must speak. I believe people who understand that sex is real are still in the majority.

actually @DobbysTeaCosy I re-read your post and apologise!! I get so upset by this at times. But I can see you were not advising staying quiet, but speaking about most effective way to help. Sometimes I wish there were a delete button on mumsnet.

Unfortunately I don't have the answers. I know from experience that if the top people refuse to see a safeguarding risk, they will hound and ignore those pointing it out. Right up until the point where something horrific happens, then they might try to pin it on the very people who tried to prevent it.

And I don't know the answer, because having been in that situation numerous times no one ever listens to you pointing out perfectly reasonable safeguarding concerns, no matter what facts or tone you use. For myself it doesn't help that I am neurodiverse and get very angry very quickly when people refuse to protect children because they're selfish or downright dangerous. It makes you enemies and again no one listens to you.

This is a weird situation as well because there are absolutely no official channels to turn for safeguarding concerns as everyone is dancing along to the same tune like the pied Piper. They'll be quick to place blame when the extent of the harm can no longer be hidden though.

Same with my son, he was 21 yesterday and we we're looking at old photos.. so many of him dressed up like a princess and I used to think maybe he'd be gay.. he still has a very camp sense of humour (think David walliams) but is straight and has had several girlfriends. I can't imagine how he would have answered at age 5 if I'd brought up transitioning.

My little bro wanted from 4 onwards to wear dresses for mufti at school. My parents never let him. As a teen he would sneak out, dress up and wear makeup. As soon as he left school and moved to London, he wears dresses etc as much as he can (works for government and still a little stuffy about that in the House of Commons!), is bisexual and seeing a person transitioning to be a man. If it is meant to be it will be - pushing either way will likely not stick if it is truly who they are

Wearing a dress is wearing a dress.
Clothes do not make someone the opposite sex.

Haven't read the full thread but I'd be very concerned. A male teen in our family went through a stage at fourteen of acting and dressing in a very feminine way, wearing make-up, all female social group, stereotypically feminine hobby. We were fairly certain he would eventually come out as gay, and there was thought given to him being trans but his parents and the family simply stood back and gently supported him in exploring himself. They didn't actively encourage or discourage anything.

10 years on he's had a girlfriend for 2 years and is a lad's lad in a very masculine work place. As with many kids his phase was just a phase of exploration and nothing more than that.

Its terrifying that these natural explorations are being jumped on and magnified by parents into something huge and damaging. Where did we lose the concept that it's just ok for people to like whatever they like, without it meaning they're obviously in the wrong body

WhiteFire
I think this particular mother fitted into another category, they have sons and being the super right on parents not just allow their children to have a range and choice of toys and clothes but also actively steer the child towards the traditional girly sparkly stuff, which being colourful and sparkly and swishy etc is the top choice. The child starts school, peers then tell the child that xyz is for girls, child preferring xyz decide that this means they are actually a girl. Parents being right on embrace this and immediately start a social transition.

I have seen exactly this situation play out. In then case I know about the mother did this and the father was of the TERF mindset (a genuinely feminist ally man). He did all sorts of mental gymnastics, aided and abetted by this stupidity on all sides and went along with it all after initially coming to me for advice, terrified. Like a sort of Stockholm syndrome as he had to go along with things or not be able to see his child (parents separated, 50:50 care).
It was so fucking obvious the child didn't even have gender dysphoria, didn't dislike their body. Even referred to themselves as their sex "who likes [things thought of as for the opposite sex]". Would have been dead easy to tell the truth to them. Such thicko parents. Mother also v invested in seeing herself as a "good mum" after other issues, which didn't help I'm sure. Makes me sick thinking what they've done.

Throughout primary DS went to school with a child who dressed like a boy and played with the boys. She had a unisex nickname based her full name. The girl had decided around age two that she preferred to wear boys clothes, in primary she was sporty and liked to play football with the boys along with another girl.
She was a Tom boy, was a girl who was one of the boys. Her parents just let her be, she wasn’t medicalised or told she was actually male.
Within a week of starting secondary school she shook of her tom boy image.
Her parents took such a sensible approach, it’s a shame that the parents of the five year old can’t do the same and need to push their child into the trans box.

Of course it's damaging to a child, telling them they can in fact be a girl when they can't for one- and secondly because it's perfectly natural and normal for young children to not have a grasp of regressive gender stereotypes and to just like what they like; including boys and pink/sparkly tops. A much more important message is cool you can wear what you like it doesn't define who you are, but no we are in this weird place where these normal phases are turned into something life changing and scary.

They don't need coaxing! Sparkles are eye-catching and appealing to children. Kids will see the sparkly clothes (eg when accompanying their parents shopping in a big supermarket with a clothes section) and will ask for them.

This appeal / pester power definitely works. I worked in H&M's warehouse for a while and noticed that they're capitalising on on it by offering sequinned tops in lots of "boy coded" designs - ninja Lego, sharks, T-rex, gaming. These were very popular!

Parents just need to accept that their sons can naturally like glitter, sparkles, pink, purple, rainbows, unicorns, dolphins, horses, frills, or whatever and that it doesn't make them a girl. It doesn't make them need medical treatment or social transitioning. Let them be a boy who likes glitter.

When my son was 4 he liked wearing fairy princess dresses, playing with dolls and such. I encouraged him as I wanted him to be a good father one day!

One day he said "mummy I want to be a girl!" And we were totally shocked and stunned. I gently asked "why is that my darling?" And he replied "I want a baby in my tummy!" And again I asked him why and he said "I want a baby sister". To which we smiled and explained that it was lovely he wanted a sister and took the opportunity to explain about reproduction (in very basic terms).

About a year later I conceived a girl and he was over the moon!

My son is 19 years old now and has a girlfriend who he is planning to live with later this year.

And indeed, they are planning children in the future and I have no doubt he will be a fantastic father!

I can very well imagine that a similar conversation took place with this child but instead of finding out a bit more, this mother transed the child!

Serious child abuse in my opinion.

Same but the other way round: my youngest was at primary school with a boy who had long flowing curls and liked playing with barbies. He'd turn up to parties in the full Disney princess gear - you could see the other boys looking at him in a slightly 'are you sure about that?' kind of way, but obviously the girls all thought it was great. It was particularly impressive because he was a stocky wee chap whose dad was an equally stocky builder, but nobody really batted an eye and everybody just got on with their lives. And actually I think it was really good for the kids to see that it's not toys or clothes that make someone a boy or a girl.

He carried on being slightly camp well into secondary, and then at some point it gradually faded away. Apparently he's in a realtionship with a girl, so it really was just a childhood preference with no lasting significance in terms of sexual orientation or gender identity.

@Bergamotte The ones where the picture changes when you swipe the sequins up and down are particularly cool. I was somewhat jealous to be honest, and they are appealing to all kids (boy or girl) in the same way trainers that flash when you stamp are.
Aside from the present>dinosaur sequin tops (boy coded) my son went through a brief phrase of really wanting pink. And of liking everything sparkly. Which was fine. But I think other posters were talking about something else - some parents actively push their boys towards pink/sparkly clothing or at least awkwardly proud of it in away they wouldn't be if their daughter was wearing pink. I don't think in itself its particularly harmful (so long as the child isn't being pressurised or they decide they are "trans") . Its definitely a thing though

Vegan cats and sexism.

Thank you for explaining my thoughts better than I did. The parents I am thinking of will almost actively push the child towards the pink sparkly stuff and then 'celebrate' it on Facebook.

When my youngest was born I was given clothes, most of them were pink. On another forum someone posted that if they saw a baby girl in pink then they would instantly know that the nursery etc at home would be totally gendered. When I objected I was told I was being too sensitive and therefore I was buying into the pinkness. Buying pink for a girl is frowned upon, buying it for a boy is to be celebrated.

I heard this yesterday - mum asking her little girl (about 4 or 5 years old) how do you know you are a girl?
They were coming out of the loos at an event. I have no more context, other than it seemed the child knew she was a girl and was ok with this fact. What on earth the mum was doing to question this, I do not know. It was quite concerning.

If our children are going to be lied to- that they can change sex- but they know we cannot, then how much will that mess them up? Biological sex is a fact of our lives, to shake the foundation of that is going to shake everything.

I now think that queer theory has won. How we are going to fight against it I don't know. I do know that every single man and dad I know is GC and thinks changing gender is ludicrous. And I think I less GC men get busy protesting we will get nowhere. Feminists carry basically no weight and the 'trans debate ' is constantly framed as it's women slagging each other off & both are as bad as each other. However those in the fight know it is not this at all.

It is very troubling.

I know an Instagrammer who dressed her son (5) in girly dresses from age 2 claiming "he really wants them". As many posters here mentioned, it's possible that a toddler boy is drawn to sparkles or more exciting textures on girls clothes but it's hard to imagine that a 2 year old really accompanies their parents on every single clothes shopping trip and kicks up a fuss if they don't get the dresses.

The mother is a very particular type of woman who is self-obsessed, materialistic, very vain despite not being that good looking and narrow-minded (eg. anti-covid vaxxer) but "faux liberal" due to consuming copious amounts of social media. The act of posting images of a cute child in dresses gave her copious amounts of attention and I think some women thrive on that. A lot of the attention was positive because it's trendy to applaud progressive mothers and she tapped into that niche.

Honestly, at 2-4 yrs, all kids are pretty much unisex so seeing a boy in a dress is quite adorable and palatable to almost everyone. Though it seems a certain subset of mothers whose lives revolve around social media, curated wokeness and self-obsession realised they can easily use this to their advantage. It makes them feel special and unique, which enhances the slog of daily life as a mother. I would definitely not raise the issue with them though, because it cannot end well. If they truly believe they are doing the right thing for their sons then no amount of intervention will change that.

SwordToFlamethrower · Today 08:26
What a lovely story about your DS, Sword.

QueSyrahSyrah . Yesterday 21:02

Its terrifying that these natural explorations are being jumped on and magnified by parents into something huge and damaging. Where did we lose the concept that it's just ok for people to like whatever they like, without it meaning they're obviously in the wrong body

Worst of all is that you hear of schools jumping on and magnifying the possibility that someone like this ‘is trans’ without involving the parents.

I think this is conversion therapy of the Gender Non-Conforming. Little boy likes sparkles, pink and princess dresses. That’s GNC, so they need to change him into a girl so that he can conform to the feminine gender stereotypes he likes so much. Ridiculous. He’s only a child anyway, and next year he might be into tractors and dinosaurs! He is much too young to have a fixed gender identity.

Why aren’t GNC people celebrated anyway? Unless you have severe dysphoria, surely it’s easier to be GNC, living your best life and smashing outdated stereotypes, than have life-changing, brutal surgery and a lifetime of medication with horrible side effects?

Hopefully in this child’s case it won’t go any further than a temporary social transition which is, at least, reversible. I’m not sure I’d dare say anything negative to the mum - but I might hope my DC said something. Children are blunt, they tell it like it is and they can’t get cancelled for it!

I heard this yesterday - mum asking her little girl (about 4 or 5 years old) how do you know you are a girl?
To be fair I regularly ask my three year old this. I am trying to teach him correct names for his anatomy and him answering 'my penis' to what makes you a boy, not only protects him from predators using children's lack of language to describe abuse, it also is an inoculation against gender ideology.

I would probably be accused of 'celebrating' my son's gender non conforming choices too much, but that's because it is almost a hyper awareness. Goes something like this.

What do you want pink ladybirds or blue slugs.
Pink ladybirds
internal voice: he's chosen pink. Will he get bullied? Better check?
you're sure?
Yes
internal voice oh no, have I just undermined his choice? Quick, undo, undo.
Great choice son!

Personally I believe that you actually have to ensure you don't completely colour code either gender, as there's no point telling 8-9 year olds colours are for everyone when most children have been colour coded since birth and they can see in their experience it's not true. If all they see is boys in blue and girls in pink they are vulnerable to gender ideology if they do not conform to gender norms. And let's face it, everyone transgresses stereotypes in one way or another.

I've tried to teach my son all colours are equal. My hope is as he doesn't see pink as inferior, he won't see girls as inferior. And if he doesn't like blue he won't think twice about purple or turquoise.

But from the outside superficially because he occasionally wears pink, purple, cats, birds, butterflies and flowers it'd look like I'm trying hard to make him gender non conforming. If you saw him on a firetruck, trains or sharks day you'd think the opposite.

Sometimes he mixes it up. I don't know what you'd think other than he's got no fashion sense haha!

It’s just shocking. A woman I know vaguely has a 10ish year old daughter who is now a boy 😏

A picture on her FB showed a child dressed in black, with her arms crossed tightly across her body, with chin length hair brushed forward enough to literally cover most of her face, “Cousin It” style. Just the mouth showing, looking so miserable.

She’s changed her name and the woman is now burbling about “mother/son” time.

The woman is an ex-page 3/glamour model and I’m willing to bet the daughter has decided that potentially being seen as just a pair of tits isn’t for her.