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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour/ Lib Dem coalition after next GE - possible?

65 replies

JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff · 10/05/2023 13:19

Keir Starmer has today refused to rule out (i.e., ruled in) creating a coalition with the LDs after the next general election.

How likely do people think this is, and how frightening? How can GC most effectively deal with this?

OP posts:
SunnyEgg · 11/05/2023 16:57

MargotBamborough · 11/05/2023 16:18

OK there are two major issues here.

Firstly, you warn about authoritarianism. And yes, for what it's worth, I agree that the Conservatives have done some worrying things, such as trying to restrict people's right to protest.

But the left is authoritarian too, especially on this issue.

"Trans women are women, no debate."

"[People who do not agree that trans women are women] must be educated. And those who do not respond to education should be expelled from the Labour Party."

If you stand up for women's rights, like Rosie Duffield, the Labour Party will hang you out to dry.

Politicians photographed smiling in front of a placard saying "decapitate TERFs".

Does this stuff not worry you?

Secondly, enough about "GC" and the far right.

Am I "aligned with the far right" if we both say water is wet?

Of course not.

If the far right says water is wet, must I then pretend I do not agree that water is wet, so as to not be aligned with them?

Of course not.

The left has played into the hands of the right in general by throwing women and girls under a bus. Obviously the political right is going to exploit that.

What do you want us to do about it?

Not fight for our own rights because some people who are arguing in bad faith or who haven't taken the time to actually understand our point of view say that fighting for our rights makes us aligned with the far right?

What kind of bullshit is that?

Women's rights is not, and has never been, a right wing position.

And if you want to argue that believing that biological sex is real and important is now a right wing position, that says far more about the political left than it does about the political right. Namely, that they are completely batshit and unfit to govern.

Agree with this post which is very good

I can also see where you’re coming from with buying time in pp, scandals are what damage this movement politically

SunnyEgg · 11/05/2023 16:59

Exasperatednow · 11/05/2023 16:40

And far right doesn't necessarily homophobia or anti abortion (there are some far right that are pro abortion) it means authoritarian. It means the type of language Bravermann uses.

The left uses its own extreme language - shrill, dinosaurs, bigoted, and beyond our politicians - turd, probably others

Women the target and words to provoke and denigrate

MargotBamborough · 11/05/2023 17:38

Exasperatednow · 11/05/2023 16:37

Did I say mumsnet gc people anywhere in my post?

Maybe you should withdraw that accusation? And there the polarisation goes on.

Well then exactly who are you referring to?

Who do you believe is a gender critical feminist and also aligned with the far right?

fdgdfgdfgdfg · 11/05/2023 17:49

I can't see it happening, mostly because I think labour will end up with a big stonking majority in the next election.

If it does happen, then I can see one of the Lib Dems demands being a move away from First Past the Post voting to something like PR, in which case it might be worth dealing with Gender Woo for a few more years to be able to get rid of the stranglehold that labour and the Tories have over our politics.

Badgeringabout · 11/05/2023 18:00

MargotBamborough · 11/05/2023 16:18

OK there are two major issues here.

Firstly, you warn about authoritarianism. And yes, for what it's worth, I agree that the Conservatives have done some worrying things, such as trying to restrict people's right to protest.

But the left is authoritarian too, especially on this issue.

"Trans women are women, no debate."

"[People who do not agree that trans women are women] must be educated. And those who do not respond to education should be expelled from the Labour Party."

If you stand up for women's rights, like Rosie Duffield, the Labour Party will hang you out to dry.

Politicians photographed smiling in front of a placard saying "decapitate TERFs".

Does this stuff not worry you?

Secondly, enough about "GC" and the far right.

Am I "aligned with the far right" if we both say water is wet?

Of course not.

If the far right says water is wet, must I then pretend I do not agree that water is wet, so as to not be aligned with them?

Of course not.

The left has played into the hands of the right in general by throwing women and girls under a bus. Obviously the political right is going to exploit that.

What do you want us to do about it?

Not fight for our own rights because some people who are arguing in bad faith or who haven't taken the time to actually understand our point of view say that fighting for our rights makes us aligned with the far right?

What kind of bullshit is that?

Women's rights is not, and has never been, a right wing position.

And if you want to argue that believing that biological sex is real and important is now a right wing position, that says far more about the political left than it does about the political right. Namely, that they are completely batshit and unfit to govern.

Excellent post.

Exasperatednow · 11/05/2023 19:44

As I said, I'm conflicted. I hate seeing Labour tie themselves in knots (and I have centre left tendencies, not aligned to any political party). I don't like being called 'cis' as its not an identity I've chosen (but been given without assent) or feel aligned to. But equally when looking into it, I'm incredibly uncomfortable when doing my own research to see KJM/PP appearing on Fox news and then saying Tucker Carlson is great.

I don't know what the answer is. I avoid posting on here about this as I thought (rightly it seems) I would get jumped on and told I was talking 'bullshit'. But there are many conflicted people, who see both sides of this issue and I personally know someone whose kid is struggling with this (being trans) and whether it's actually poor mh (possibly) or they really are trans (?), I'm trying hard to look at this issue and gain greater understanding of trans issues and mine as a woman and to try and think if there is a less conflictful way forward.

MargotBamborough · 11/05/2023 19:56

Posie Parker doesn't identify as a gender critical feminist. She doesn't even identify as a feminist.

I'm not 100% comfortable with everything she says and does either.

But do you know what I'm even less comfortable with? Trans activists assaulting her to try and stop her from speaking, whilst the police turn a blind eye and "progressive" politicians praise the trans activists for a job well done.

It's no good saying, "But look, her events attract Nazis!"

If you're turning up at her events wearing a balaclava and armed with weapons in order to intimidate women into silence, her events are indeed attracting Nazis. You are the Nazis. Rainbow-coloured, be-pronouned Nazis.

Exasperatednow · 11/05/2023 20:34

And I completely agree with that. It's one of the issues that I'm most uncomfortable with. People who say they are women and then behaving like aggressive men. Being a women isn't about dressing a certain way or wearing make up (many women don't). It is being conditioned by our place in relationship to men and how they have designed and continue to design the world (such as predominantly female organisations that still have predominantly male boards).
But you know all that.

That's it from me for now.

EpicChaos · 11/05/2023 22:50

@JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff " Labour/ Lib Dem coalition after next GE - possible? "

Even more reason NOT to vote for them then!

@SunnyEgg " If it’s in the manifesto I don’t think the Lords can do much about it "

Why is it that people think a manifesto is some sort of nailed on guarantee of anything? Manifesto's aren't worth the fag packet that they're written on the back of!
The Lords, incidentally, can do what they like, manifesto, or no manifesto.

SunnyEgg · 11/05/2023 22:57

EpicChaos · 11/05/2023 22:50

@JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff " Labour/ Lib Dem coalition after next GE - possible? "

Even more reason NOT to vote for them then!

@SunnyEgg " If it’s in the manifesto I don’t think the Lords can do much about it "

Why is it that people think a manifesto is some sort of nailed on guarantee of anything? Manifesto's aren't worth the fag packet that they're written on the back of!
The Lords, incidentally, can do what they like, manifesto, or no manifesto.

Why is it that people post these sarky sort of responses. I did not say anything was ‘nailed on’ 🙄

It’s not exactly the same if it is in the manifesto by convention. Why do people think the HoL would have particular issue with it?

EpicChaos · 11/05/2023 23:24

Manifesto's are worth no more than last weeks shopping list, that's probably all crumpled, scribbled on and was left at home anyway. They are worthless @SunnyEgg .
That's why people make sarcy comments about them.
" By convention " ? eh?

The HOL is cross party, some members are of no particular party and will vote with conscience, some members have their own agendas, some just turn up for the £300 per day and subsidised food and drink and as a meeting place for them to wine and dine lobbyists. Some rarely vote at all.
The HOL is not a carbon copy of the HOC just with different coloured benches.

SunnyEgg · 11/05/2023 23:34

EpicChaos · 11/05/2023 23:24

Manifesto's are worth no more than last weeks shopping list, that's probably all crumpled, scribbled on and was left at home anyway. They are worthless @SunnyEgg .
That's why people make sarcy comments about them.
" By convention " ? eh?

The HOL is cross party, some members are of no particular party and will vote with conscience, some members have their own agendas, some just turn up for the £300 per day and subsidised food and drink and as a meeting place for them to wine and dine lobbyists. Some rarely vote at all.
The HOL is not a carbon copy of the HOC just with different coloured benches.

By convention I mean the Salisbury Convention which applies to manifestos and the role of the HoL

Why would this be different?

SunnyEgg · 12/05/2023 08:15

Thinking about the majority issue I do take pp but one other element is confidence from a majority

You can see it with Drakeford’s response post local elections. Your question doesn’t matter, go away with your women’s issues

It’ll ramp up with an actual majority and it’s likely Starmer will be bolstered with a majority

The only way to undermine that is to show it in votes imo

MargotBamborough · 12/05/2023 08:45

I agree it's a fine balance.

I think all possible outcomes of the next election sound dire, to be honest.

SunnyEgg · 12/05/2023 08:51

It really is

Starmer is worried about SNP style blow up but if he wins that majority I expect he’ll shut down questions with no one cares

He already does but it’ll be worse

So depressing

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