How would I prove I'm a woman?

[OliverKitten]

Posting in here because I think you lot seem to know quite a bit about the rules around all this stuff, hope that's ok!

Say there was a counselling group near me for natal women only, and they had decided it was proportionate under the EA to exclude men identifying as women because of the content. But say I am a very masculine looking woman (and yes I know it's almost always easy to tell what sex people are, but there are a very very small percentage of people with whom it's trickier) and the organisers challenge me. What document can I easily get to prove my sex? Not passport, driving licence, as they can be changed with a GRC I think? I think also that there is nothing on my birth certificate which distinguishes me from someone who is a man who has had his birth certificate changed to say he is a woman.

https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/registration/gender-recognition says that the Scottish gov maintains a confidential record of who had a previous birth cert registered with a different sex, but this is not available to the public so I couldn't use this.

Is it possible for me to prove my sex under the current system in Scotland (short of medical exam)? Or is it completely impossible now?

Apart from the above type of scenario, which is hypothetical, I can't think of why I would ever need to prove my sex in a real life situation, but somehow I feel like I should be able to, if I wanted to!

Isn’t that exactly the point - to wipe out the ability to define woman as a sex class? I do think the documentation/statistics element of this ideology is a major issue, although for lots of people it’s boring and unsensational - so tends to get ignored.

Of course, before all this bollocks, pretty much everyone would obey the social contract, and there would be no need for anyone to question a masculine-looking female entering a female only space. The behaviour of a small number of transwomen, and an increasing number of MRA’s has caused this problem.

However, I imagine that however masculine a woman looked (within the realms of female potential) her voice and behaviour would likely confirm her natal sex

I would be able to prove I was born a woman in my country because no one's birth certificate can be modified while other id, including a national identity card can be updated for those who have had their legal sex changed (a medical examination is needed). Many westerners would consider my country the backward one.

No ned to fret OP. I'm sure you were correctly identified in your maternity wards when you birthed your 3 children and the rest of us are well used to the wonderful diversity of looks and body types amongst women.
You'll be fine.

'Not passport, driving licence, as they can be changed with a GRC I think?'

Other way round. You can change 'gender' on your passport and drivers license at will.

A GRC is needed to change your birth certificate.

I would produce my episiotomy scar on request.

Some men online can fake it briefly, but in real life you can ALWAYS tell.

The birth certificate is dated differently though? So it's dated from the date they apply for the sex change. (or at least the one I checked was)

What?

I thought we'd already been through this once.

You cry three times before breakfast, and write a scathing email that you don't send.

Strewth, talk about reinventing the wheel.

To actually answer the OP seriously, a DNA test should do it.

I've been thinking about this (I'm in Scotland) and have decided to offer any gender-doubting bureaucrat a knickers-down view of My Scar. AFAIK this female badge of honour is only awarded to people born with a uterus.

As far as I know every birth certificate has two dates on it - the date you were born and the date the copy was issued (which could be soon after the birth or many years later - anyone can request a new copy at any time). So I don't think this would show whether a GRC had been granted would it?

Interesting question anyway OP.

Personally I'd be in favour of official documents recording biological sex alongside optional gender identity.

What do you mean it's dated differently? Presumably it doesn't change the actual date of birth.

People can order new birth certificates for any number of reasons. The one I have at home records my actual date of birth but its date of issue is early 2021. I needed an original birth certificate to apply for my son's first passport and I don't have the one that was issued a few weeks after my birth. My parents do have that one, so if I had to I could produce the original original. But some people have lost their original birth certificates. If you order a new one from the GRO and its date of issue is today, that doesn't signify that you have changed your legal gender. Just that you have recently applied for a new birth certificate, which people do all the time for a myriad of reasons.

I'd point at my knees and say "how many transwomen do you know with nipples touching these?".

It's fine OP. Just announce loudly that you want privacy, dignity and autonomy (or get your language wrong while ordering coffee) and everyone in the vicinity will immediately demonstrate that they all know exactly who the females are in the room without any paperwork or questioning required at all.

Ooh. That's a great answer. I don't like my scar but you might have just given me a reason to.

As far as I know, no one has an original birth certificate at home - they're all copies.

I would show them my payslip and ask them to compare it to a male bodied person doing the same job.

All the more reason to repeal the GRA. Being able change your birth certificate is absurd.

But yeah, most of the time you won't have to identify your own sex. You just have to misgender someone and let everyone else do it for you.

I have the mine, in fountain pen, from the day I was registered, I have the same for my kids (only pen was the signature by then) - those are definitely originals.

Trans people would argue that this would "out" them. (And of course nobody would be able to tell otherwise.)

But how about this.

People can choose whether to record sex or gender on their official documents. If you choose to record sex, it can only be your actual biological sex. The document then functions as proof of your biological sex for the purposes of accessing single sex spaces or services.

If you choose to record gender instead of sex on your official documents but then you wish to access a single sex space or service, you must provide some additional proof of your biological sex in the form of a DNA test which could be obtained pretty cheaply via a provider such as Medichecks.

In order for trans people not to be automatically "outed" by using the gender marker rather than the sex marker, trans allies can choose to use the gender marker and DNA test option out of solidarity with trans people. Of course, this would require a little more effort than simply putting "she/her" in your email signature and loudly denouncing TERFs on social media, so we'll see how dedicated to the cause they really are.

Came across this on Twitter - filters versus reality. Very revealing.

https://twitter.com/3ScotchEggs/status/1655551815822241794

From a legal point of view they are all originals, but for all intents and purposes you are right of course.

Came across this on Twitter - filters versus reality. Very revealing.

https://twitter.com/3ScotchEggs/status/1655551815822241794

Very revealing indeed. And is even more revealing in real life.

@OliverKitten
If you are female they will know.
It's not as hard to tell someone sex as some people are so desperate to pretend.
Everyone knows, it's just a question of do they want to go along with the pretense.

Besides a male pretending to be a woman will go in with an agressive attitude of entitlement that will put all the women on edge. A real woman will just turn up and join in without any fuss.