How would I prove I'm a woman?

[OliverKitten]

Posting in here because I think you lot seem to know quite a bit about the rules around all this stuff, hope that's ok!

Say there was a counselling group near me for natal women only, and they had decided it was proportionate under the EA to exclude men identifying as women because of the content. But say I am a very masculine looking woman (and yes I know it's almost always easy to tell what sex people are, but there are a very very small percentage of people with whom it's trickier) and the organisers challenge me. What document can I easily get to prove my sex? Not passport, driving licence, as they can be changed with a GRC I think? I think also that there is nothing on my birth certificate which distinguishes me from someone who is a man who has had his birth certificate changed to say he is a woman.

https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/registration/gender-recognition says that the Scottish gov maintains a confidential record of who had a previous birth cert registered with a different sex, but this is not available to the public so I couldn't use this.

Is it possible for me to prove my sex under the current system in Scotland (short of medical exam)? Or is it completely impossible now?

Apart from the above type of scenario, which is hypothetical, I can't think of why I would ever need to prove my sex in a real life situation, but somehow I feel like I should be able to, if I wanted to!

Some of the tin hat theories as to what's driving the money and power behind this insanity is an attempt to make biometric ID necessary. In which would be a huge amount of money, and even more control and power with all the data held on the populace.

In reality however - no one has difficulty. No one ever has the slightest difficulty knowing who to shout the rape threats at or to demand service humaning.

So going back to the birth certificate and date question. If you produced the "copy" of your "original" birth certificate which was dated within a few weeks of your actual birth, then surely this would prove your sex unequivocally?

Obviously doesn't help those who've lost their birth certificate, but should work for the majority?

Margot:
”But how about this.

People can choose whether to record sex or gender on their official documents. If you choose to record sex, it can only be your actual biological sex. The document then functions as proof of your biological sex for the purposes of accessing single sex spaces or services.

If you choose to record gender instead of sex on your official documents but then you wish to access a single sex space or service, you must provide some additional proof of your biological sex in the form of a DNA test which could be obtained pretty cheaply via a provider such as Medichecks.

In order for trans people not to be automatically "outed" by using the gender marker rather than the sex marker, trans allies can choose to use the gender marker and DNA test option out of solidarity with trans people. Of course, this would require a little more effort than simply putting "she/her" in your email signature and loudly denouncing TERFs on social media, so we'll see how dedicated to the cause they really are.”

That’s an excellent idea

I've never met a 'masculine looking woman' who isn't obviously a woman. A brief picture might be misleading but that confusion is very soon moved up when they move and talk like a woman (due to physical differences). Can you show any pictures at all (videos better) of women who actually appear to be men? I think just say 'hello'. That will probably do it.

Of course people will know.

But there are situations where people would need to be asked to prove their biological sex because they are insisting that they are one when they are in fact the other.

Take Beira's Place, for example. Within hours of it being announced, trans activists were plotting about how to get biological males in there under false pretences. These people are absolutely capable of insisting that they are the opposite sex even though everyone can see this is false, and putting the burden on the other person to prove that they are lying.

Yes, I imagine the number of people who have lost their original birth certificate AND whose sex isn't immediately obvious from looking at them must be quite small.

I've got a fairly visceral photo of me giving birth, that would probably do it?

Funny isn’t it that somewhere like Beira’s place operating under Equality Act exceptions to provide single sex services is so awful, yet it is perfectly fine for The Stand to discriminate against protected characteristics?

Sounds reasonable to me. Ideally a trans person could choose to record both if they wish. Presumably some are comfortable in their identity and not worried about being outed? And sometimes biological sex does matter.

‘Outed’ is such a ridiculous concept when it is so blatantly clear to everyone who sees them.

A DNA swab?

I guess the reason why I phrased it as an either/or is because I can't imagine that most trans people would want to record their sex, if having their gender on their official documents is so important to them, and because if "trans allies" recorded both their sex and their gender, recording their gender would just be empty virtue signalling, because it would be a zero effort move on their part and would not prevent a single trans person from being outed or normalise having a different gender from your biological sex in any way.

Well that's the thing then, they can insist all they like. But the service provider has the final word, whether it's proven or not.

Personally, I think that would work, because it's easy to tell, imo.

Sport would just require a cheek swab, which is what I believe they used to do. You would only require it once in your life.

Any birth certificate issued before this madness took off should do it. Failing that, offer to make everyone a cuppa.

Exactly 100% with you on your last paragraph. I do not recall seeing a woman and thinking it is a man WTF. There's a huge difference between someone looking slightly masculine and someone looking like an actual man.

@MargotBamborough

Whatever solution you come up with in good faith will mean nothing to those operating in bad faith.
For something like Beira's place I would make it so that it only accepted referrals. TRAs turn up on the doorstep "referrals only go away", then call the police when they refuse. Don't even give them the chance to try and argue/force their way in. Beira's place can decide what professionals they accept referrals from and the procedure. A Doctor's report could be a part of that procedure, sex established.
The referral process could be super fast when necessary. A doctor is made available immeadiately, the doctor phones Beira's place with the recommendation at the end of the appointment. The point being that the screening process happens off site. If you screen onsite you will never get them out.

DNA test to show you have female chromosomes is the only real proof these days

While I understand references to childbirth and scars, please remember that not all women have that experience and suggesting that this is the key way to prove “womanhood” can feel a bit uncomfortable.

Giving birth is quite a give away too.

Head tilt?

Call them ‘he’ and see if they explode with narcissistic rage?

I don't disagree in theory, but given how difficult many people find it to get a doctor's appointment I don't have faith that this could be done quickly, or that doctors necessarily have the time or emotional bandwidth to understand exactly what is being asked of them here.

What if a harried, time-poor GP doesn't know what Beira's Place is and needs it explaining to them, or doesn't understand why their patient wants referring to a specific centre rather than one they can go to without a referral, or worse still, doesn't understand the point of Beira's Place and refers a trans woman patient who may or may not have changed their sex to F on their medical records?

There is such a need for these services, I wouldn't want to put administrative hurdles in the way of women who need to access them, because the administrative hurdle you hope will keep trans women out will also keep some natal women out.

That's true. I still find it hard to imagine not wanting reality recorded on official documents,whether that's age, sex, height, eye colour, whatever.

Surely true trans acceptance would include accepting that sex doesn't necessarily match gender identity and that that's ok? (Gender identity is meaningless to me but clearly matters to some.)

I've just been watching a video of a young transwoman who claims to get PMS and also claims that a gynaecologist couldn't tell the difference between their artifically constructed vagina and a female vagina.

There are people, it seems, who truly and genuinely appear to believe they have somehow changed sex.

I think this is likely because the OP (who appears to have vanished) has posted elsewhere about birthing 3 babies?