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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Three principles of reactionary feminism

196 replies

MalagaNights · 01/05/2023 18:21

An article by Mary Harrington.

She thinks women need to:

Focus on the importance of marriage.
Let men have their own spaces.
Stop taking the pill.

She's taken some thoughts I've been having for a few years to logical conclusions, it's given me a lot to think about. I need to get my head around the idea of there being no progress.

It's certainly feels to me a very different approach to gender critical feminism presented on MN as being what feminism is.

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2023/04/88473/

The Three Principles of Reactionary Feminism

An honest reckoning with women’s interests today calls on us to reject the cyborg vision of sexless, fungible homunculi piloting re-configurable meat suits. The cyborg era began with women, and women must reclaim the power to say “no.” In its place, we...

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2023/04/88473

OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 03/05/2023 11:44

Having full control of your fertility is the most wonderful, joyous thing

But condoms do the same thing. And protect against STDs.

I'm sorry, but my own experience of the Pill led to near suicide. It's the very last thing on earth I would call in any way wonderful or joyous.

In my view, Harrington is quite correct.

ArabeIIaScott · 03/05/2023 11:44

-about the pill!

ScrollingLeaves · 03/05/2023 11:49

I think we should be saying to young women: have high expectations of men and don't accept anything less. See sex and your boundaries as part of this. Even if the boundary isn't quite marriage!
I do think men would start to have to live up to the high expectations of high value women
.

Holding hands probably felt more like an electric current of passion than a lot of the activity called “ having sex” does in many cases of the instant total intimate, physical engagement expected now.

As well as what you spoke of, OP, I think something that matters is allowing men to feel strong and proud that they are taking on care and responsibility for someone who needs them; or even feel proud that they are physically stronger and will carry that suitcase or offer you a seat. This is a natural motivator for men, though the ways they show it may vary. There is a difficult balance to be found though as women need to be strong in their own right too, and may even have the greater skill with the power drill.

HBGKC · 03/05/2023 12:11

@DemiColon the fertility clinics you mention probably work with NaPro - Natural Procreative Technology. They have a lot of success helping couples with all kinds of infertility, particularly where 'normal' medicine has failed. The one in Liverpool apparently has 40% Catholic clients and 60% not.

From the US mother-site:

"Unlike common suppressive or destructive approaches, NaProTECHNOLOGY works cooperatively with the procreative and gynecologic systems. When these systems function abnormally, NaProTECHNOLOGY identifies the problems and cooperates with the menstrual and fertility cycles that correct the condition, maintain the human ecology, and sustain the procreative potential.
Women now have an opportunity to know and understand the causes of the symptoms from which they suffer."
I do think a whole lot more of this kind of thing should be taught to both girls and boys before they leave secondary school.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 03/05/2023 12:14

Where is the vomit emoji?

HBGKC · 03/05/2023 12:34

Don't know, @YetAnotherSpartacus, but have this instead Biscuit

I also totally agree with "I don't think our culture is very good at teaching people to abstain from anything, it's a credit society all the way."

and

"... the default answer for sorting it seems to be, whatever women will consent to, because it's all about freedom. But we all know that doesn't really cut it in the end."

We all know there's no such thing as 'free credit', but most of society - and many feminists - seem to have their heads in the sand regarding the hidden costs of many of the 'benefits' that women now enjoy, compared to their counterparts 150 years ago.

The cult of the Individual actively discourages any attempt at compromise, or building a balanced social contract that isn't 100% favourable to Me and My Interests... why is also why feminism has such a blind spot when it comes to motherhood, as (I would argue) there are clear clashes between the interests of a mother and those of her child.

MH is in favour of compromises between the sexes, in the pursuit of a social reality that benefits both women AND men. I guess that's why so many would like to boot her out of the Feminist camp.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 03/05/2023 12:38

I wasn't referring to you (I'd have quoted you if so) but to the OP (as have a few other one-liners throughout the thread).

YetAnotherSpartacus · 03/05/2023 12:40

Hahahahaha. No.

Agree.

HBGKC · 03/05/2023 12:41

MalagaNights · 01/05/2023 18:21

An article by Mary Harrington.

She thinks women need to:

Focus on the importance of marriage.
Let men have their own spaces.
Stop taking the pill.

She's taken some thoughts I've been having for a few years to logical conclusions, it's given me a lot to think about. I need to get my head around the idea of there being no progress.

It's certainly feels to me a very different approach to gender critical feminism presented on MN as being what feminism is.

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2023/04/88473/

Ok.

Care to share what of the above makes you want to vomit..? So we can, y'know, discuss it?

MalagaNights · 03/05/2023 13:38

PurpleBugz · 03/05/2023 00:46

@MalagaNights

How could you convey to young woman: this may not be the best thing for you.

I honestly don't know. My instinct is to say teach them history and give them testimonies. Maybe we could win over a generation who can see clearly the state of the world for women. But as soon as there are not living women giving testimony the men will get the agenda back to them I think.

I also would worry at what point we explain this to them. It would not be acceptable to teach it in schools I don't think so relying on families to teach mean many many young women miss out learning. Many mothers won't have the knowledge or information to teach it anyway. But I'd not be happy my child being taught it at school. And at what age?! I consider when I first started kissing boys and absolutely no way would I have understood what was being explained to me. But I lost my virginity very young and believed it was my choice, I would be uncomfortable having such a conversation with a girl that age it's still a child. I will be laying the foundation but my daughter will be an adult before I discuss her potential to be used sexually by men with her. And I hope she never understands what I explain because living being treated that way and having it explained are different and both are needed to truly understand what it does to you

Another thing that was interesting about the orthodox Jewish AMA was that there was a built in mentorship between women where the codes which they believe work for women are passed down.

I'm not sure we have the cultural structures in place for this to happen outside religious communities? Family is obviously the key unit for this, but can this be strong enough to give messages which go against the cultural message?

Schools are always tasked with solving all cultural problems but I don't believe a taught curriculum is what changes culture. And I see no evidence that the RSE curriculum is supporting young women to have clear boundaries around sex. It can only be done if there are moral codes around sex beyond just consent.

The other thing I found interesting about the orthodox Jewish AMA was how central women's bodies are to rituals, and menstrual cycles are almost revered in their significance. This in itself places women and their biology as inextricably linked and would mean this link could not be dispensed with, either by the pill or by Transing it away.

OP posts:
DemiColon · 03/05/2023 15:43

HBGKC · 03/05/2023 12:11

@DemiColon the fertility clinics you mention probably work with NaPro - Natural Procreative Technology. They have a lot of success helping couples with all kinds of infertility, particularly where 'normal' medicine has failed. The one in Liverpool apparently has 40% Catholic clients and 60% not.

From the US mother-site:

"Unlike common suppressive or destructive approaches, NaProTECHNOLOGY works cooperatively with the procreative and gynecologic systems. When these systems function abnormally, NaProTECHNOLOGY identifies the problems and cooperates with the menstrual and fertility cycles that correct the condition, maintain the human ecology, and sustain the procreative potential.
Women now have an opportunity to know and understand the causes of the symptoms from which they suffer."
I do think a whole lot more of this kind of thing should be taught to both girls and boys before they leave secondary school.

Yes, this is what they were - I couldn't remember the name! They seem to do really amazing stuff with women's reproductive health.

HBGKC · 03/05/2023 18:01

Quoting @MalagaNights: "Another thing that was interesting about the orthodox Jewish AMA was that there was a built in mentorship between women where the codes which they believe work for women are passed down.

I'm not sure we have the cultural structures in place for this to happen outside religious communities? Family is obviously the key unit for this, but can this be strong enough to give messages which go against the cultural message?"

What you're talking about in the first paragraph here is I think what Mary Harrington was advocating for men: that older men tend to be the ones to teach younger men how to be 'good men', and that this kind of naturally occurring mentoring tends to occur in single-sex contexts (even if not legislated to be single-sex) - down the pub, for instance! Or whilst doing/working at something together (building a barn, Amish-style 😅).

In the absence of formal religious observance (which is getting gradually rarer and rarer), I do think the extended family unit can be a good bulwark against the more toxic socio/cultural messaging we're seeing so much more of in the 21st century.

But that family unit is itself under attack. Almost 50% of marriages end in divorce. A similarly high proportion of children grow up without both their parents living in their home. Hence MH's plug for post-Big Romance more practical companionship-based marriage, with its benefits for women, men and children.

There's strength in numbers, but society is growing more atomised and individualised all the time. It takes a concerted effort to resist for oneself, and to help one's children to resist, the lie that "hell is other people" and you're better off alone with your smartphone, porn, and virtual companions that you can switch off and unplug whenever you get bored.

Carla786 · 26/12/2025 01:39

MalagaNights · 03/05/2023 13:38

Another thing that was interesting about the orthodox Jewish AMA was that there was a built in mentorship between women where the codes which they believe work for women are passed down.

I'm not sure we have the cultural structures in place for this to happen outside religious communities? Family is obviously the key unit for this, but can this be strong enough to give messages which go against the cultural message?

Schools are always tasked with solving all cultural problems but I don't believe a taught curriculum is what changes culture. And I see no evidence that the RSE curriculum is supporting young women to have clear boundaries around sex. It can only be done if there are moral codes around sex beyond just consent.

The other thing I found interesting about the orthodox Jewish AMA was how central women's bodies are to rituals, and menstrual cycles are almost revered in their significance. This in itself places women and their biology as inextricably linked and would mean this link could not be dispensed with, either by the pill or by Transing it away.

I apologise for resurrecting this thread but I want to explore this point quickly as I think it's important.

Yes, women's menstrual cycles are important to rituals in Orthodox Judaism, and that is in some ways positive. Buy equally, the principle of niddah and going to the mikveh is that women are ritually impure during their period. Menstrual taboo.

I don't think this should be praised so uncritically. I don't think menstrual taboo-based practices, whether Muslim, Hindu, Native American, Orthodox Jewish or any of the others that still prevail, can ever be really woman-centric.

Carla786 · 26/12/2025 01:50

HBGKC · 02/05/2023 21:21

I haven't finished catching up with the thread, so apologies if someone's already mentioned this, but DemiColon's comment flagged up in my brain something from the recent AMA by an Orthodox Jewish woman (which got to 1k posts very quickly, and then there was a second one - people were finding her life absolutely fascinating!)

She was talking about the Jewish custom (for married couples) of abstaining from sex during the woman's period plus a set number of days thereafter. She was very honest, said it was sometimes really hard (I think they're actually not allowed to touch AT ALL during this time), but that the 'enforced' separation actually enhanced the couple's sexual relationship, as it creates a natural rhythm of separation, building desire, and then coming together again.

Catholic social teaching suggests a similar thing WRT to Natural Family Planning, whereby the couple avoids intercourse around the fertile part of the woman's menstrual cycle.

I'm sure I'll be drummed out of town for even mentioning anything vaguely religion-adjacent on the FWR board (given some of the reactions just to the OP on this thread!), but I personally find this kind of holistic, biologically attuned, woman-centred approach more attractive than chemically altering female biology in order to reduce the potential real-world consequences of sex.

MH points out that the Pill benefits men at least as much and probably significantly more than women. It also definitely negatively impacts (some) women in (some) significant ways, yet doesn't impact men negatively at all.

I agree with her that the Pill is a good example of "progress" that hasn't actually turned out to be an unmitigated success for women.

I'm sorry to resurrect a zombie but I've been reading up on Judaism recently & wanted to explore this further.

I get your point re woman-centred fertility control. However re the Jewish practice...the AMA, which I read, was indeed fascinating. But the custom of no sex during the menstrual period isn't to regulate fertility like NFP, or restore the relationship, it's a menstrual taboo. A menstruating woman is ritually impure until she's immersed in the mikveh bath.
I don't think menstrual taboo-based practices, whether Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Native American or any other that still persists, can ever be considered 'woman-centric' .

BlueJuniper94 · 26/12/2025 07:56

ToriaB · 01/05/2023 18:31

Hard agree

What's wrong with reading Foucault?! You don't have to agree but he is very worth reading/understanding

BlueJuniper94 · 26/12/2025 08:00

Carla786 · 26/12/2025 01:50

I'm sorry to resurrect a zombie but I've been reading up on Judaism recently & wanted to explore this further.

I get your point re woman-centred fertility control. However re the Jewish practice...the AMA, which I read, was indeed fascinating. But the custom of no sex during the menstrual period isn't to regulate fertility like NFP, or restore the relationship, it's a menstrual taboo. A menstruating woman is ritually impure until she's immersed in the mikveh bath.
I don't think menstrual taboo-based practices, whether Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Native American or any other that still persists, can ever be considered 'woman-centric' .

Edited

A guarantee you'll be left alone when you're bleeding and sore? Seems beneficial to women even if it is borne out of a male ick

BlueJuniper94 · 26/12/2025 08:16

MalagaNights · 02/05/2023 19:37

I don't think anyone including Mary Harrington would suggest you not wanting 6 children is what belittles motherhood.

What belittles it is that it is seen as less important than work done within the marketplace.

Work in and for the family is belittled, work in the marketplace is given high esteem.

I think we're at a point where the right thinks women and men are generally better off when they belong to families and the left think they are better off belonging to no one.
When women and men are atomised individuals only seeking to fulfill their own desires without even the constraint of biological reality.

You are then free to just sell yourself as you wish- your time or body - when the left were meant to be against capitalism and the right for individual freedom! This is why right and left don't work anymore.

I think Harrington has said the real political divide is now between the bio realists and the bio libertarians. I think there is real utility in this way of looking/categorising belief clusters. Her argument about the pill being the first transhumanist technology is very compelling. And is the rubicon "healthcare" (and our expectations of it) crossed when the focus expanded to technology which disrupts normative healthy processes in the body to allow us full sovereignty over our bodies - it's very clear why trandsgenderism was inevitable when we look at it this way.

BlueJuniper94 · 26/12/2025 08:17

Oh good grief- didn't realise how old this thread was!

RayonSunrise · 26/12/2025 08:28

BlueJuniper94 · 26/12/2025 08:00

A guarantee you'll be left alone when you're bleeding and sore? Seems beneficial to women even if it is borne out of a male ick

Going by this logic, you’ll next be horseshoeing your way round to finding value in protecting women by veiling them from the male gaze. Lots of oppressive practices have been framed as “protecting” women in the past.

CurlewKate · 26/12/2025 08:29

BlueJuniper94 · 26/12/2025 08:17

Oh good grief- didn't realise how old this thread was!

Still interesting and relevant-I’m going to comment after I’ve had some coffee!☕️

BlueJuniper94 · 26/12/2025 09:29

RayonSunrise · 26/12/2025 08:28

Going by this logic, you’ll next be horseshoeing your way round to finding value in protecting women by veiling them from the male gaze. Lots of oppressive practices have been framed as “protecting” women in the past.

That's quite a jump, and I'm quite sure if you had in mind any of the steps involved in that leap you'd have shared them, so really that's just a needlessly complex way of saying "I don't like that you said that".

RayonSunrise · 26/12/2025 10:08

BlueJuniper94 · 26/12/2025 09:29

That's quite a jump, and I'm quite sure if you had in mind any of the steps involved in that leap you'd have shared them, so really that's just a needlessly complex way of saying "I don't like that you said that".

No problem. Reactionary feminism takes women’s biological reality and pushes it into being an idealism. So motherhood is not merely something many women do, it’s their ideal state and interfering with it with birth control is bad for women.

Women’s biological reality also means they we are smaller and weaker than men, and there are many historical measures in place taken to protect women from male sexual aggression. In the UK we tend to think of sex segregated public toilets. In other cultures they also veil women to protect them - I’ve had the “benign protection” explanation for this repeated to me quite often by people defending the veil as honouring women and their welfare, unlike in the West where we display women and “pretend it’s empowering.”

Harrington and her fans are just a step away from being pro-hijab, the only thing that stops them is that their target audience is anti-Muslim so they won’t go there quite so baldly. Attacking Western feminists and women having agency overarching their reproductive function works for reactionaries everywhere, though.

Amyway, I’ll leave you to chew on that while I get the rest of my Boxing Day hosting on.

Seethlaw · 26/12/2025 12:21

MalagaNights · 01/05/2023 18:21

An article by Mary Harrington.

She thinks women need to:

Focus on the importance of marriage.
Let men have their own spaces.
Stop taking the pill.

She's taken some thoughts I've been having for a few years to logical conclusions, it's given me a lot to think about. I need to get my head around the idea of there being no progress.

It's certainly feels to me a very different approach to gender critical feminism presented on MN as being what feminism is.

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2023/04/88473/

She has a point on the cyborg-isation of bodies.

But she's massively deluded in her belief that if only we let them be, men() would happily show themselves willing to be "good husbands and fathers". Men have literally spent thousands of years, all over the world, showing women what they think of them - so why don't women simply believe them? Why do so many women refuse to take men at their current and historical word?

( * as a group. NAMALT, but a majority are.)

Edited a formatting mistake.

BlueJuniper94 · 26/12/2025 12:32

Seethlaw · 26/12/2025 12:21

She has a point on the cyborg-isation of bodies.

But she's massively deluded in her belief that if only we let them be, men() would happily show themselves willing to be "good husbands and fathers". Men have literally spent thousands of years, all over the world, showing women what they think of them - so why don't women simply believe them? Why do so many women refuse to take men at their current and historical word?

( * as a group. NAMALT, but a majority are.)

Edited a formatting mistake.

Edited

I don't think she's deluded - I can't speak for her, but I imagine that Christian strictures on sexuality and the primacy of the sacrament of marraige goes a long way to managing this problem. If we lived in a fully Christianised culture (our wills were aligned with God's) we wouldn't need hijabs. That's kind of the whole point.

Also @rayonsunrise it's interesting finding someone here using hijabs as an argument against sex segregated toilets. Most women here are in favour of them. I hear what you're saying about them basically being the same thing, so I'll chew over why I disagree

Seethlaw · 26/12/2025 12:41

BlueJuniper94 · 26/12/2025 12:32

I don't think she's deluded - I can't speak for her, but I imagine that Christian strictures on sexuality and the primacy of the sacrament of marraige goes a long way to managing this problem. If we lived in a fully Christianised culture (our wills were aligned with God's) we wouldn't need hijabs. That's kind of the whole point.

Also @rayonsunrise it's interesting finding someone here using hijabs as an argument against sex segregated toilets. Most women here are in favour of them. I hear what you're saying about them basically being the same thing, so I'll chew over why I disagree

I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian church, so I know how those teachings can twist the reasoning.

I imagine that Christian strictures on sexuality and the primacy of the sacrament of marraige goes a long way to managing this problem

Not really. For example, my Church leaders had to very reluctantly address the problem of porn because so many married men were addicted to it. And it was also well-known that many married men cheated. Quite frankly, it was mostly women who believed in the sacrament of marriage.

If we lived in a fully Christianised culture (our wills were aligned with God's) we wouldn't need hijabs.

I don't understand that part. Would you mind explaining a bit more?