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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Three principles of reactionary feminism

196 replies

MalagaNights · 01/05/2023 18:21

An article by Mary Harrington.

She thinks women need to:

Focus on the importance of marriage.
Let men have their own spaces.
Stop taking the pill.

She's taken some thoughts I've been having for a few years to logical conclusions, it's given me a lot to think about. I need to get my head around the idea of there being no progress.

It's certainly feels to me a very different approach to gender critical feminism presented on MN as being what feminism is.

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2023/04/88473/

The Three Principles of Reactionary Feminism

An honest reckoning with women’s interests today calls on us to reject the cyborg vision of sexless, fungible homunculi piloting re-configurable meat suits. The cyborg era began with women, and women must reclaim the power to say “no.” In its place, we...

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2023/04/88473

OP posts:
ToriaB · 01/05/2023 20:56

ArabeIIaScott · 01/05/2023 20:32

Why on earth are you being so hostile?

Those are all places where OP will find feminists keen to discuss how committing to marriage, enshrining spaces for men and giving up hormonal contraception will improve women's lot. Because it's individual choices that fit neatly into the patriarchal structure that women need; not to fight for societal change.

When I called her "patronising" I was very much thinking of the Latin origins of the word.

GuevarasBeret · 01/05/2023 20:59

LoobiJee · 01/05/2023 19:24

So according to Mary Harrington giving women a greater ability to control whether they get pregnant or not is the root cause of women being exploited? Not male entitlement then? Not the multi billion pound international commercial sexual abuse of women and children industry that is the pornography and prostitution industry? But to fair to her, criticising pornography would make it harder to get a publisher. And make her sound like one of those tiresome old feminists.

Is that what she says though? I thought it was more “The Pill has not been the success we hoped it might be”? Maybe a version of Patriarchy will take any
gains from women for men if possible.

It feels like she feels men are mostly not great partner/father material, but is the answer to that dumping on women, or is it encouraging men to be better (which I think would also make them happier).

Bolets · 01/05/2023 21:01

There's something Suzanne Moore wrote which was along the lines of agree very much with Mary Harrington's identification of the problem, disagree enormously with the suggested plan of action. I suppose that sums up my feelings.

ToriaB · 01/05/2023 21:06

Bolets · 01/05/2023 21:01

There's something Suzanne Moore wrote which was along the lines of agree very much with Mary Harrington's identification of the problem, disagree enormously with the suggested plan of action. I suppose that sums up my feelings.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20230302075201/www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/reactionary-feminist-who-rails-against-progress-pill" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20230302075201/www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/reactionary-feminist-who-rails-against-progress-pill/

Suzanne Moore:

"Harrington is a terrifically provocative thinker who carries you along. There I was, cheering her analysis, until she got to her solutions – when I wanted to throw the book against the wall.
For her solutions – which she calls “Reactionary Feminism” – take a torch to every sacred feminist cow. She believes in shoring up marriage, and in men having their single-sex spaces too. She rails against the pill, and does not want abortion further liberalised."

The ‘reactionary feminist’ who rails against progress – and the pill

In her provocative new book Feminism Against Progress, Mary Harrington takes a torch to every feminist sacred cow

https://web.archive.org/web/20230302075201/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/reactionary-feminist-who-rails-against-progress-pill

CurlewKate · 01/05/2023 21:07

@OneTwentySeven

Quite.

ToriaB · 01/05/2023 21:17

ToriaB · 01/05/2023 21:06

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20230302075201/www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/reactionary-feminist-who-rails-against-progress-pill" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20230302075201/www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/reactionary-feminist-who-rails-against-progress-pill/

Suzanne Moore:

"Harrington is a terrifically provocative thinker who carries you along. There I was, cheering her analysis, until she got to her solutions – when I wanted to throw the book against the wall.
For her solutions – which she calls “Reactionary Feminism” – take a torch to every sacred feminist cow. She believes in shoring up marriage, and in men having their single-sex spaces too. She rails against the pill, and does not want abortion further liberalised."

If OP had presented the analysis rather than the solutions alone I suspect she may have got reasoned debate. Without the thinking that leads to the incongruent conclusions of "reactionary feminism" the immediate response is (an understandably negative) feminist reaction.

DemiColon · 02/05/2023 00:14

OP, I think you are right in your initial post that to get where MH is coming from, you have to really wrap your head around the idea that progressiveness is an illusion.

Basically, she believes that any given period in history has certain facts around it, that we often have little control over. Things like the economic basis of the society, the technology level, the ability for that society to maintain a complicated bureaucracy, the ability to maintain a complex justice system, or a welfare state.

You also have the basic, unchanging elements of human nature, some good, like self-sacrifice, empathy, familial love, and others not so good, like greed, the will to power, lust.

Within the basic environment, you get a set of social norms, traditions, social structures, laws, and other institutions, that negotiate the arrangements to manage human nature, and also the environment, in a way that allows civil society to function.

And while sometimes they may be clearly negative, more often it's the case that they represent an attempt to find the best balance of competing interests, advantages, and disadvantages. Changes that are meant to be positive in one way often have other disadvantages or trade-offs. And very often you can't entirely mitigate those, you have to make a choice.

One of the big problems with the idea that we are "progressing" to some sort of more and more just or perfect society is that people don't see clearly the trade -offs, and in fact imagine that there aren't any.

DemiColon · 02/05/2023 00:23

Seainasive · 01/05/2023 20:43

I agree with you ArabellaScott - I had not come across Harrimgyon before and find it fascinating how different people can come to wildly differing conclusions when looking at the same world.

doesn’t mean I have to agree with all of any of it, but I still like to read & discuss it.

I find the reaction to MH reminds me a lot of the kinds of feminists who think that feminism means telling other women that their perspectives don't count.

Why they are so aggressive and seem to think they can control a public message board where women talk about things that interest them is a good question.

DemiColon · 02/05/2023 00:26

There are thousands of posts that start with someone posting an article they find interesting, with little or no extra "analysis".

landOFconfusion · 02/05/2023 01:28

crispinglovershighkick · 01/05/2023 19:08

"Read Sappho not Foucault"
This on a t-shirt please

Putting aside the immense difficulty of deciphering the archaic Aeolic dialect, the more practical problem with reading Sappho is that only one of her complete poems still exists.

RayonSunrise · 02/05/2023 04:04

Bolets · 01/05/2023 21:01

There's something Suzanne Moore wrote which was along the lines of agree very much with Mary Harrington's identification of the problem, disagree enormously with the suggested plan of action. I suppose that sums up my feelings.

I agree with that too. As ever though, suddenly there are people popping up to complain that if you find MH's proposed solutions risible, you're in an ivory tower blah blah. As if not wanting to be a lifelong broodmare is some sort of lah-di-dah thing.

soddingspiderseason · 02/05/2023 08:54

From a practical perspective, I agree with the main points of this. I had really bad reactions to the pill, as has my daughter, and when you step back, why do we change the whole biology of our bodies to prevent pregnancy? There are other ways that don't mess with your whole body. Single sex spaces? For specific issue like male rape, or the isolation of older men? Yes. And if you have children, you are far better off being married to the other parent, especially if that relationship breaks down.

I'm quite taken aback by some of the hostility on this thread to people expressing a different viewpoint. This isn't Twitter, it's a more mature, intelligent place, where women share their thoughts, opinions and experiences. No need for any negativity or hostility. Tsk.

ArabeIIaScott · 02/05/2023 09:45

DemiColon · 02/05/2023 00:26

There are thousands of posts that start with someone posting an article they find interesting, with little or no extra "analysis".

Yep.

DemiColon · 02/05/2023 10:08

One way I find it useful to think about this is to ask, what might a good society for women look like, pre, say, 1920? Or pick some other year before the widespread availability of antibiotics and reliable birth control - where the female body we have is the body we have to accommodate.

Or to put it another way, is it only possible to have a good society for women if we can suppress, through technology, some of the major features of female biology? Personally, I don't think so.

One of the effects that the Pill in particular, and other more advanced birth control options, is the creation of the sense that sex is something we should all have access to, that within a relationship it's normative to have pretty continuous sexual access or the relationship is really done, there is even a pretty common idea among the sex-positive crowd that not being sexually active is a sign of a mentally and emotionally unhealthy person. Sex, for the vast majority of people now, is seen as some kind of leisure activity without great consequence.

That is a really different viewpoint than has existed before for most people, where sexual desire was seen as something that had a place and purpose, but had rather significant consequences, and therefore had to be managed. And it was recognized that managing it wasn't easy, because it was a powerful drive, but that it was necessary.

I get the sense from a lot of people now that the idea of really having to manage sexual desire is kind of an imposition. (By nature, I guess?)I don't think that's disconnected from other ways in which people have come to think about the restraints of nature as an unjust imposition.

Or to put it another way, if being really free, as a woman, requires the technological suppression of female biology, what does that say about woman as an essentially biological category, or about suppressing other elements of human material reality in pursuit of freedom? Which is why I think Harrington is drawing a link between the Pill and transhumanism.

PurpleBugz · 02/05/2023 10:30

@DemiColon

I found that comment really insightful.

How would a good society for women look do you think? If we assume no birth control?

What about non hormonal birth control? Like condoms and the copper coil. Should they be included in our hypothetical good for women society or not?

PurpleBugz · 02/05/2023 10:41

@DemiColon

I haven't thought about it for long but I think for me the main thing such a society needs to get right is the money. Not just have no pay gap but tackling the ability of women to access work. Childcare and aging relative care need to be equal.

But what about breastfeeding mothers access to work? Can all employers have childcare on site? No. So women are still going to be a risk to employers taking maternity leave. And say they can bring the baby to work. What breastfeeding women is getting enough sleep to be able to return to work at a productive level with men on such disturbed sleep?

I don't feel I understand universal income enough to propose it as a solution but if we all got enough to live on and work was bonus money then I hypothesise less men would work full time and thus be able to do the childcare to allow more women to work. But again pay would have to be equal for this to work. But I don't think it can there are too many problems with it

NotHavingIt · 02/05/2023 10:41

I think there is definitely something of the zeitgeist about women now wanting to focus on women and women's issues without having to conform to feminist dogmas. Women tend to have very similar issues regardless of their colour, creed, culture or politcal persuasion.

I've read the Mary Harrington book and it is very interesting and does pose plenty of food for thought. she does tend to take ideas and explorations to their limits and in doing so can hit wrong notes or not quite get things right - but that doesn't disqualify her thoughts from discussion.

Meghan Murphy has been thinking along broadly similar lines too:

https://open.substack.com/pub/meghanmurphy/p/why-i-moved-away-from-feminist-the?r=clsg2&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

Why I moved away from 'feminist' (the identity) and 'feminism' (the ideology)

Watch now (5 min) | It's not because I'm rejecting the women's movement

https://open.substack.com/pub/meghanmurphy/p/why-i-moved-away-from-feminist-the?r=clsg2

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/05/2023 10:55

MalagaNights · 01/05/2023 20:24

Are you actually suggesting you could report me for starting a thread about a different view of feminism on the feminism board?

I think I'm done here.

Genuine question: is there anywhere I can engage in discussion with women with differing viewpoints and who can tolerate this but who share a common interest in women's issues?

This isn't it.
This is crazy town.

Christ what a bunch of loons replied to you OP. Don’t go! I’m too busy to do the background reading now but always find MH interesting and thought provoking and will be back

thank you for starting the thread

Mycatwantsmedead · 02/05/2023 10:55

@DemiColon - very good comment.

The ideology behind the pill is identical to that of gender ideology, because it assumes that there is something wrong with a woman’s body functioning as it supposed to.

I’m not sure how that feeds into marriage because women will always need to avoid unplanned pregnancies whether they are married or not, but I haven’t read the book.

How does stronger marriage negate the need or right not to be pregnant?

PurpleBugz · 02/05/2023 10:57

@MalagaNights

Stay and talk! I find this topic fascinating and want to discuss it

NotHavingIt · 02/05/2023 11:03

IwantToRetire · 01/05/2023 18:44

What is depressing is how much media coverage this writer gets. I wonder why?

But then I did a quick search and it seems more than a few threads have been started about her on FWR ...

Bewildering.

Just because she as an individual chose to backslide into tradition is hardly the basis for proposing a whole new feminism to make her feel less bad about herself.

You make feminism sound like a cult ..." backsliding"

I think that is actually one of MH's points: we need to find a way forward which works for women, as well as for men. Men are not the enemy. And most women have children.

'Feminism' neeeds to be for all women; to centre women - even if they have a different background or political persussion to yourself.

NotHavingIt · 02/05/2023 11:08

MalagaNights · 01/05/2023 18:50

Because most women are heterosexual and want relationships with men.
Most women want children.
It's better for women to have the support of the other biological parent in the cost intensive raising of children.

Most importantly it's better for children.

I worked out a similar position on marriage as being in (most) women's interests myself. Partly from the stories of young unmarried women on MN.

But the views around 'cyborg feminism' and rejecting the pill are new to me. But I can see logically fits with the rejection of body modification and separation from your body that transgenderism proposes. It's also interesting that she think this would reconnect sex as deep and important, which would make it more pleasurable and in women's interests in relationships. Which makes some sense.

I'm pretty sure she's as against Foucault as the next gender critical feminist.

Absolutely! She's been there, and she's got the T-shirt - like quite a few of us.
She speaks common sense, and actually there is definitely something of the zeitgeist about her ideas. I've been heading in that kind of direction, myself.

Looked at through a certain lens, 'Equality' liberal/progressive feminism seems to have the end goal of erasing women; of seeking to escape from everything female. In that is joined by the transgender and transhumanist projects.

ArabeIIaScott · 02/05/2023 11:10

DemiColon · 02/05/2023 10:08

One way I find it useful to think about this is to ask, what might a good society for women look like, pre, say, 1920? Or pick some other year before the widespread availability of antibiotics and reliable birth control - where the female body we have is the body we have to accommodate.

Or to put it another way, is it only possible to have a good society for women if we can suppress, through technology, some of the major features of female biology? Personally, I don't think so.

One of the effects that the Pill in particular, and other more advanced birth control options, is the creation of the sense that sex is something we should all have access to, that within a relationship it's normative to have pretty continuous sexual access or the relationship is really done, there is even a pretty common idea among the sex-positive crowd that not being sexually active is a sign of a mentally and emotionally unhealthy person. Sex, for the vast majority of people now, is seen as some kind of leisure activity without great consequence.

That is a really different viewpoint than has existed before for most people, where sexual desire was seen as something that had a place and purpose, but had rather significant consequences, and therefore had to be managed. And it was recognized that managing it wasn't easy, because it was a powerful drive, but that it was necessary.

I get the sense from a lot of people now that the idea of really having to manage sexual desire is kind of an imposition. (By nature, I guess?)I don't think that's disconnected from other ways in which people have come to think about the restraints of nature as an unjust imposition.

Or to put it another way, if being really free, as a woman, requires the technological suppression of female biology, what does that say about woman as an essentially biological category, or about suppressing other elements of human material reality in pursuit of freedom? Which is why I think Harrington is drawing a link between the Pill and transhumanism.

That's a very insightful post. Thank you.

I think often the arguments are unfolding and as the context changes, the arguments also need to change.

We had 'sex positivity' in the 70s to counter some of the shaming and judgement that had been used to control women.

And as we've seen, that 'sex positivity' has in many cases been taken to an extreme that is now harming women, and controlling them, yet again, just in a different tone of voice.

NotHavingIt · 02/05/2023 11:12

ToriaB · 01/05/2023 21:06

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20230302075201/www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/reactionary-feminist-who-rails-against-progress-pill" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20230302075201/www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/reactionary-feminist-who-rails-against-progress-pill/

Suzanne Moore:

"Harrington is a terrifically provocative thinker who carries you along. There I was, cheering her analysis, until she got to her solutions – when I wanted to throw the book against the wall.
For her solutions – which she calls “Reactionary Feminism” – take a torch to every sacred feminist cow. She believes in shoring up marriage, and in men having their single-sex spaces too. She rails against the pill, and does not want abortion further liberalised."

Sacred Cows always set thmselves up for inevitable critique. Once something becomes a sacred cow you no longer remain open to other possibilities or interpretations.

ArabeIIaScott · 02/05/2023 11:15

I notice some feminists are very averse to talking about the 'family' for example. We can see disparagement of mothers, of mothering, of the entire idea of familial love and connection. We have all heard some of the withering put downs used towards women.

I can understand some of the history of that - the response to 'heteronormativity' and the way that society would confine women to the domestic sphere.

But I think there's a lot yet to be done in consideration of the role of 'women's work' and valuing of family and mothering, etc.

Most women are mothers. And most mothers consider it a very important part of our lives.

Which is not to say I agree with Harrington on all of her suggestions, at all. I don't. But perhaps explains some of the violent reaction with which these ideas are met.