Citizens Advice blames high gender pay gap on non-binary staff being ignored

[SerendipityJane]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/01/charity-gender-pay-gap-blamed-on-non-binary-omission

The goal should be to allow free choice, if women are "choosing" lower paid jobs or careers then you need to examine why not just shrug it off as it's their own fault for choosing that.

Silly women. If only they’d stop choosing to do those low paid jobs, huh?

The goal should be to allow free choice, if women are "choosing" lower paid jobs or careers then you need to examine why not just shrug it off as it's their own fault for choosing that.

We've had free choice for decades. And equal pay. That's why there's no gender pay gap under 40 as a result.

although it is talking particular about high earners, this is the pattern that the ONS reports with women over 40 less likely to move into higher paid managerial jobs

The ONS have reported for a few years now that the number of women over 40 moving into management is increasing, and this is reducing the gap UK wide.

The managers, directors and senior officials' occupation group has experienced the largest fall in gender pay gap since the pre-coronavirus pandemic April 2019 figure, especially for those aged 50 and over; this group has previously been identified as having a notable impact on the pay gap.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/genderpaygapintheuk/2022

It's age cohorts that are changing the gap figures, i.e. when you were born. There's a chart at the link.

This article suggests, otherwise, that men not taking on childcare and employees making assumptions about men and women is more important than women’s choices, although it is talking particular about high earners, this is the pattern that the ONS reports with women over 40 less likely to move into higher paid managerial jobs

https://hbr.org/2014/12/rethink-what-you-know-about-high-achieving-women

Here's a more recent article by Harvard with comments from the same Professor.

A Harvard study has found that single female M.B.A. students will minimize their career ambitions in front of men, including withholding their opinions, avoiding career-advancing opportunities, and offering to take a lower salary.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2017/04/single-women-m-b-a-s-will-downplay-career-ambitions-to-preserve-options-on-the-marriage-market/

I believe that the Chief Exec or Chair of Citizens Advice (not sure which) has a trans child, so they seem to be allowing their personal experience to spill over into the professional life. Which, ironically, is one of the things CitA advisers are told not to do!

@ResisterRex

"The excuses:

"A lengthy section at the top of the organisation’s latest pay-gap report for the year to April 2022 states: “Gender identity is often assumed from the sex assigned at birth. However, gender is more complex than ‘men’ and ‘women’."

Was this a quote from citizens advice? 'Assumed at birth' is male/female. It seems to be implying when more of these men identify as other categories the inequality will be hidden? Have I misunderstood here?

I don't think that's all that surprising. I've known female builders, pregnancy really takes a toll on them it doesn't with men in the same roles. They can't easily minimize the effects in the way an office worker can.

I had some builders in doing a significant renovation on my house a few years ago. They were all related, a father, brother and sister. The sister was just entering the eighth month of pregnancy, and it was the last job she was doing. Lots of stair climbing, heavy lifting, bathroom up two flights of stairs, and wearing a respirator, were just not all that compatible with the work. And for that matter, her brother and dad didn't mind accommodating as much as possible, but they also couldn't do the whole job themselves without a third.

Cor

i think that is the most naive thing I’ve ever seen anyone write on this board

kudos

Lol ive literally just been paid off from lloyds bank in a senior management role for gendrr pay discrimination, being told i mist be a whistleblower on known problem men (as am female) and told i could not be promoted due to senior boys network only including men

The bank does this to manage out women and keep a male pyramid. Theres so many cases going thru on female pay and race theyre hirinf more HR lawyers as current are over worked and off sick alot

Open your eyes! Men have to do whatever they can to ensure the top remains 80% male and protect themselves and this mesns killing off capable women (even totally obviously knowing theyll be paid off and no longer competition)

@PurpleBugz yes, I read that as the Telegraph reporting what is in the report. To me it sounded like odd reasons. Or excuses.

ONS data is available for those of you willing to consider a different opinion!

The largest fall since before the pandemic is among managers, directors, and senior officials, from 16.3% in 2019 to 10.6% in 2022, reflecting some signs of more women holding higher-paid managerial roles. This occupation group has one of the highest median pay levels – £23.25 per hour (excluding overtime) for full-time employees, compared with the median £16.30 among all full-time employee jobs, and therefore has a strong impact on the gender pay gap.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/genderpaygapintheuk/2022

A 5.7 percent drop in 3 years even through the pandemic.

This trend will get to zero in five to six years at that rate.

Is this data naïve?

The UK charity sector is consumed in internal strife with many organisations frightened of their staff and more focused on being seen to examine their privilege than their actual mission. I think @MurielThrockmorton is bang on. There is so much focus on race and lgbt diversity, class is largely ignored, and in fact made worse by the emphasis on university-educated rightthink, and political view point diversity is actively discouraged. I think a Conservative voter would find most national charities a pretty hostile place to work. Two stories in Third Sector today - I see a clear link between the two, myself. I'm finding it harder to defend charities against accusations that they're primarily there to provide employment to middle class graduates.

Your data isn’t naive but this is

We've had free choice for decades. And equal pay.

rather ignores the different lives that men and women tend to have I’d suggest

The UK charity sector is consumed in internal strife with many organisations frightened of their staff and more focused on being seen to examine their privilege than their actual mission.

Completely agree with this. I went to D and I training and the emphasis was on privilege and I was saddened to hear young women say that they had privilege and needed to step back as a result.

That's the last thing women need to do but they lap up this bollocks!

Lloyd's Bank is dominated by Oxbridge allumni. (I've done work for them).

Even Oxbridge women pick more arts and humanities degrees. They are not the subjects that will qualify you for the top tiers of banking. You need to be able to read a P and L! They don't teach that in a English Literature degree.

However, women make up nearly two-thirds of creative arts graduates but less than a third of economics graduates.

https://ifs.org.uk/articles/gender-differences-subject-choice-leads-gender-pay-gap-immediately-after-graduation

More profitable businesses have more money to spend on pay.

This is the same even within a sector, bigger universities pay more than smaller ones (above the national scale) because they have more income to spend on pay.

Your data isn’t naive but this is

It's not my data. It's the Office of National Statistics

rather ignores the different lives that men and women tend to have I’d suggest

Nope, I'm talking about choices. If the trend is the managerial pay gap reaching zero women are achieving this by making choices that have equal outcomes. I thought that was desirable? It's certainly identified as the problem. I'm just pointing out that the data shows it's rapidly changing in women's favour on an aggregate level in the UK.

How would not ignoring non-binary people affect the gender pay gap? Would they want them counted as men, making the average male pay lower (because they are probably low-paid women who want out)? Or counted separately which is unlikely to make any difference as the majority of women are in the low paid female category not the "I'm not like other girls" category so it won't affect the mean?

They don't understand statistics, sociology OR biology.

https://ifs.org.uk/news/gender-wage-gap-grows-year-year-after-childbirth-mothers-low-hours-jobs-see-no-wage

This age interpretation doesn't help.

Women who had their first child 20 years ago (in the 40 to 50 age cohort now) were far less likely to be as highly educated as women having their first child now (in the under 40 cohort with no gap in aggregate, only an occupational choice one).

It's a false interpretation that women's experience in each age cohort ahead of us will be the same as women's experience in the 1990s and 2000s.

The drop in the management earnings gap is evidence of this. (And the main influence on the aggregate gap).

This report treats women as inevitably replicating the lives of earlier generations which is not true. It's already not happening.

Would
it be the case that more men negotiate pay rises than most women?

I think transparency of pay scales would a good start.

Thanks @Abhannmor and @worrieddragon. I saw the headline of that article in Third Sector but I don't subscribe any more as it's too expensive for what it gives me (lots of information about people I don't care about in new national jobs!) Yes, a Conservative voter would get short shrift in the sector. Brexit was also a bad time to be in possession of a working class family who voted leave not because they were racist but were still called racist and thick. I would get out if I could, but I don't know what else to do! I've spent 30+ years thinking and acting on equality (sorry, let's be fashionable, equity) so have no guilt as a lot of people in the sector seem to have instead of them standing up to the diversity bullies, but my views seem too nuanced for proper discussion.

You are ignoring that choices are not made in a vacuum. From starting pre school my youngest dd has constantly come out with girls do this boys do that. I feel like I'm constantly fighting an uphill battle against gender expectations to enable her to reach her potential and this is in an environment where she is surrounded by strong female role models working in male dominated industries.

I see this in work. Girls choosing health and social care and boys construction and engineering options. It’s rare to see crossover family input/ societal expectations are strong.

You are ignoring that choices are not made in a vacuum. From starting pre school my youngest dd has constantly come out with girls do this boys do that. I feel like I'm constantly fighting an uphill battle against gender expectations to enable her to reach her potential and this is in an environment where she is surrounded by strong female role models working in male dominated industries.

I'm not ignoring it at all, I've posted a review showing that even highly ambitious women doing MBAs at Harvard behaved in a gendered way and you would expect that they are some of the most ambitious women around.

What I am saying is that in aggregate people are paid equally now under 40 and this means male and female occupations are largely equally paid where all other factors are equal, ie age and education and skills required, and seniority.

Company level gender pay gap reporting distorts this by creating a perception that women are underpaid for the same jobs in a company, which is incorrect as it's usually that there aren't many men at all in that occupation to even appear in the company's data.

I suspect far more men work in small busineses which is why we're getting this lopsided view on corporate gender pay gaps.

There is nothing wrong with women choosing their preferred careers. It's a good thing. Far better to spend your life working in a career or job you choose.

The gap will be closed by women who choose to go into management and get there in their 50s.

I had two kids in my 30s. I'm paid the same as the men in my age group now at 60 doing the same job in the same sector. It would be discrimination if I wasn't. I had four years off and muddled through with childcare and shared care with my partner and working flexibly. It's not a permanent detriment any more if you don't want it to be and get back in the promotion game in your later life. A few years out or part time means little after 30 years. Companies are bending over backwards to get equal representation and today's 40 somethings are the target for this.

The route to megabucks in banking is unbelievably competitive and only the most determined get there. And it's pretty nasty on the way. Really very nasty.

There's nothing wrong with not wanting to do that and I doubt really aggressive occupations will ever be fully 50 50 for that reason.

But most middle and senior managers will achieve parity and close the gap before 2030. Your child rearing years are not your whole working life.

@Hepwo I'm not ignoring it at all, I've posted a review showing that even highly ambitious women doing MBAs at Harvard behaved in a gendered way and you would expect that they are some of the most ambitious women around.

I actually wouldn't be surprised by that. I lived in the States for some time (East Coast, professional job). I found American women far more gendered than British women. Even the extremely bright and able. The States is a very gendered society. I dont know the breakdown by nationality but I would expect most MBA's at Harvard to be taken by Americans or individuals with green cards (and wanting to stay in that environment).

It’s an interesting question about whether things will change with later generations, or whether it’s a change that will come to all women of a certain age (!) from across all generations. I’m not sure about the statistics, but when I look around, I see far more women affected by health issues and also just as the teenagers are leaving, our parents may start needing care, which is more likely to fall to daughters than to sons, perhaps particularly in working-class families with fewer resources to buy in care, or in cultures where there is more of a familial expectation that daughters will perform the role. There is also the effects of the menopause, I’ve seen varying statistics around this, but it certainly something that affects women’s employment with no male equivalent.