Some contrapoint quotes.

[PurpleBugz]

https://twitter.com/dunn_dufault4/status/1651307344213442588?s=46

Just wanted to share this.

Dunno if I linked this right. The bit I found interesting was from about 46mins-54min or something.

I discovered contrapoint from witch trials of JKR podcast. So watched this video when it popped up on my Twitter feed.

To quote (I typed as he spoke so don't hold me to the exact accuracy). "there is a certain level of delusion that often accompanies the early stages of transition and I do think it's unfortunate that 90% of people being very vocal about being trans will be people in that stage ..... [you move on with you life] ...leaves you with this unfortunate situation where the people talking about trans don't really know what they are talking about "

"I've learned what transitioning actually means, what is possible, what is not possible......I feel like there was a kind of mania almost that prompts the start of transition where you sort of think that anything is possible ... I feel like now there's a sort of disillusionment that sets in a few years in where you realise the things that hormones are gonna change have changed and at this point you know you've kind of ruined your life. You've ruined your life as it was, your relationship to your family is irreparable.. you have socially started over and you have to deal with the fact that no you will never be a cis person of the gender you identify with and so you are stuck in this very difficult existence.... I just feel very negative about being trans lately ..... I don't wanna be trans it sucks....I feel like I'm stuck with it. Defying the established social order is hard. Violating the most basic categories of human society has negative consequences. You learn that a lot of people are really shallow. You learn to cope"

I feel so sorry for this person to feel this way. I am struck they choose to use the word violate here. And I think if this is all learned post transition how could there have been informed consent?

It's cruel to lie to people.

It is. The lie that people can change sex should NEVER have been sold.

Which is likely part of why it's easier to not face it. Once you face that throw do you live with it?!

This is it, Jackie. You've got the hormones. You've had the surgery. You've made it. You're 30, or close to it, and no longer a 'trans kid'. You're living the dream, right? The finish line is behind you.

Absolutely. It's tragic the lies that have been allowed to spread.

Wow. That was very quick FOJN! I wonder if monitors are really spooked by this discussion.

Jesus Christ, I don't think I even so much as misgendered.

I wonder if it was the reference to KC on YouTube which rattled the monitors?

Or the suggestion that advocating for purchasing hormones off the internet was irresponsible?

I remember reading that the peak time for suicide is 7-10 years after transition. The point where you've done everything you can do and you realise you will never reach the goal of becoming the opposite sex and on top of that you're likely to have complications from the cross-sex hormones and surgeries.

I'm not sure that it was this article that stated it as I have but it's relevant info anyway.

The timing of the suicides also provides important information. None occurred within two years of treatment, but “there were six suicides after two to five years, seven after five to ten years, and four after more than ten years of cross-sex hormone treatment”.

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/02/60143/

This is what some trans people are calling ‘Transition Disenchantment’.
Dr Az Hakeem and Stella O’Malley have started working with trans people in this phase, it’s a sort of like a mind-only detransition, they no longer believe they ARE the opposite sex or that they can BECOME the opposite sec but can’t really see a way back physically or feel there is no way to repair the relationship/family/friendship breakdown and detransition will make those relationships worse, not better (like they caused all that emotional damage for nothing).

I believe that this is what makes post-transition people a risk for suicide (rather than the ‘it’s societies fault’ excuse that TRAs use).

The Contrapoints clip puts me in mind of one of the handful of lovely long-time transitioned posters we’ve had on this board over the years, Leanne.

Leanne had transitioned young but found that the much hoped for better future never quite materialised and later life was very lonely.

Will find a link.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6493959/amp/Transsexual-warn-reality-transexual.html

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/im-still-man-says-transsexual-2375238

https://www.transgendertrend.com/letter-to-young-trans-people/

The concept of disenchantment within transition isn’t a specific transgender/transsexual thing, it was written about life changes in general.

https://www.amazon.com/Transitions-Making-Sense-Lifes-Changes/dp/0738285404/

it’s very a good fit for thinking about gender transition tho!

Anyway, Natalie Wynn, if you are lurking MN, give this book a read and consider contacting Genspect!

I'll be honest, not sure I trust everything at face value that a US pastor is writing. E.g. "A recent Swiss study found not only a lower mental quality of life for the surgically transitioned group than for the general population" is not a good control group to compare to. They could have been at 2/10 pre, 4/10 post but general population is 5/10. Their statement is still correct, but then it would also be the case that transition was beneficial.

There will be a lot of factors, won't there?

1. The realisation that transition doesn't solve all mental health problems
2. The physical consequences of spending years on cross-sex hormones beginning to take their toll

1. The fact that as these 'transkids' move into their late 20s and early 30s, their friends will start having families. Most of them without the need for any intervention. Even more of them without the need for donor eggs/sperm/surrogate mothers. The differences between transitioners and biological men/women will become increasingly clear.

1. If transition is something of a trend (and given the number of desisters and detransitioners coming out, I am inclined to think it is), then it may slowly become undesirable or uncool to be trans. If it does, then there would be a loss of status among peers. Those who transitioned because they were influenced by others, whether they were aware of it or not, will feel this most keenly.

1. Genuine transphobia. Spending their lives worried about being attacked or verbally abused for being trans (and maybe actually experiencing attacks or abuse).

These outcomes are not what I would want for myself or my children.

Genspect have published a guide called ‘Beyond Transition’ aimed at therapists (who will no doubt find increasing numbers of transitioned and detransitioned clients in the coming decade).

https://genspect.org/beyond-transition-a-brief-guidance-for-therapists/

Thank you. Informative read

God it's depressing when laid out like that isn't it.

These poor kids having that as their future adult life.

It's all such a fucking pointless clusterfuck.

That exact line from JG's video was what struck me in relation to this, too.

'Finish line'. As if 'woman' is something that can be 'achieved'.

At some point, presumably the realisation dawns that there is no finish line.

That's really interesting, and telling.

Defying the established social order is hard.

It can be, but it's so sad that people in the gender movement think that's what they're doing. Transing is about conforming to social categories, not defying them. It's about thinking you have to be a "man" and have a "male role" if you're in some way masculine, even if you're female.

If you're a TW and you think you are breaking with social order, then you must consider yourself to be male/a man. Because if you think you're a woman, then enacting a bunch of feminine stereotypes is not defying that order at all, is it?

It's so sad because poeple have been defying the social order and gender norms for centuries and generally that's paved the way for progress against sexism and stereotypes.

It would be fine to be "transgender" if that literally meant adopting opposite-sex gender norms because you don't like the ones associated with your own sex. You could do that without any surgery or hormones or physical ill effects - just as some people have always done.

Of course thinking that makes you trans-anything requires a basic set of deeply sexist assumptions. People are not actually all bound by strict gender laws, most people depart from them to varying degrees anyway. But if people who want to label themselves transgender would just do this it would save a lot of misery.

yeah that's a totally fair point. Doesn't mean we have to ignore or forget the nastiness just that it is possible to feel sympathy and compassion to a person whilst also being deeply critical of their behaviour and disagreeing passionately with (some of) the stuff they say.

I don't want anybody to be really unhappy. I don't hate trans people. I just think telling homosexual girls that they can quite literally grow up to be heterosexual men is not a helpful or realistic expectation. It is likely that the reality will not live up to the fantasy. Ditto telling heterosexual boys/men that they can opt in to the category of homosexual women and expect to have sexual romantic relationships with homosexual women because they think that that would suit them and their feelings better is setting up unrealistic expectations that will more likely than not lead to frustration and bitterness.

"You learn that a lot of people are really shallow". Shallow as in, lesbians don't magically throw themselves at you now you are deluding yourself that you are also a "lesbian"? That's not being shallow, that's same-sex attraction....because sex is real.

Yes, well, as we saw with Jackie Green, unhappiness often leads to attempts to deflect and blame others.

I thought it was performing femininity tbh. They obviously feel hurt but the years didn't seem fully genuine - more how they perceive that a woman would have

I just remembered this - an enthusiastic article written by someone in the first flush of transition (aka the ‘pink mist’ phase).

https://metro.co.uk/2022/03/21/coming-out-as-trans-has-made-me-happier-than-ever-16176047/

The quote from the trans ex gf is widely attributed to Natalie Wynn.

"It can be, but it's so sad that people in the gender movement think that's what they're doing. Transing is about conforming to social categories, not defying them."

This.

Though they never admit it. I sometimes browse Reddit and whenever this point is brought up they find some excuse as to why they are not perpetuating gender stereotypes. It goes hand in hand with them not being able to define man/woman, because the only one that would allow any form of 'identity', apart from being circular, requires stereotypes (to identify with).

And on a wider picture, while personally I think some people genuinely have a mental illness where they think their body is 'wrong', most that are 'trans' don't. They are only 'trans' because they don't identify with the stereotypes of the gender associated with their sex. Hence gender stereotypes completely underpin the entire ideology.

"Contrapoints crying on that podcast and saying they still care about what JKR thinks reminded me of a child wanting approval from a beloved teacher or parent".

But why? My EQ is not particularly high so maybe that's why, but I cannot grasp at all why someone would care. And then, if they do care that it makes them so upset if that person has a different view. I can see if it was your friends and family, but a stranger you don't actually know...