"You don't care about children!" & "Moral panic"

[SpicyMoth]

JKR retweeted something from TheAmazingAtheist being pro gender ideology.
I remember hearing of him before but remembered him being more "Anti-Social Justice Warrior" in terms of views so I was confused & looked into him more to try and make sense of it.

This took me down the rabbit hole of a subreddit called BreadTube, here is rule 2 of the sub;

" 2. Posts should be against the prevailing winds of the internet
BreadTube exists to promote content that goes squarely against mainstream political discourse, which tends to be pro-establishment (liberal or conservative), pro-capitalist, and pro-authoritarian. If a video could get uncontroversial primetime space on any mainstream outlet, it probably does not belong here."

So, me thinking "That seems a reasonable rule, maybe this is a place for actual discourse?" I delve a bit deeper and start looking at what people have posted.
Good grief was I wrong...
One of the top rated posts was a thread linking to this video; e
I'm not super far into the video, but what this woman is saying is just... Coming across as really quite patronising - As if by virtue of not agreeing with her, you're stupid and bigoted.

A lot of other posts seem to be specifically about this topic, and I've noticed a wave online of TRA's using this argument as well;
Basically saying that "Thinking of the children" is the argument being used today w/ gender ideology, and it's the same as the argument that homophobes used to use against gay people/gay rights.
That because people did this in the past and used that excuse for being against homosexuality, that it's happening again with trans people.

Now obviously we know that these two things are not the same at all, who you love has absolutely nothing in common at all with taking irreversible hormones and having surgeries performed on minors (That there is literal proof and evidence of in the form of detransitioner's).

But how do we escape this "Boy who cried wolf" situation that we're in?

Because it very much seems to echo that old children's story... Homophobes didn't like gay people so they lied and said "Oh but think of the children!" when there was never any threat. Then they did it with legalising gay marriage, again still no threat.

Now there's an actual threat to children's safety, and we're told we're lying. That we don't care about children. That we're hateful and phobic.
Meanwhile the number of destransitioner's is growing ever still, and despite this fact, despite the fact that they are living proof of the harm ideology can do, we're still lying and bigoted and we never really cared about kids...

Do they actually not believe us when we tell them our concerns, or are they just refusing to listen?
How do you even combat this?
How can there ever be any meaningful conversation when everything is taken in bad faith?
How can we show that we actually do care about the children in a way that would get through?
How can we show them that homosexuality and trans ideology truly are not the same thing? - Who you love vs. physically altering your body are literal worlds apart from one another, It seems completely mad to me to even compare them...

An epidemic of parents or conspiracy of schools 'transing' children seems completely preposterous and poorly evidenced.

Really? Who do you think puts the idea in a child's head that they might have been born in the wrong body and that this can be fixed with medication and surgery?

There are threads on here all the time about schools changing children's names and pronouns, often without their parents' knowledge or consent.

And haven't you ever heard of Jazz Jennings orJackie Green - two of the most well-known examples of children whose parents wanted to trans away the gay?

As a general rule political views should not be foisted on children. It’s pretty terrifying that Florida has backslid to the point where ‘it’s okay to be gay’ is considered controversial, and it should reinforce one thing very clearly for everyone here: hard fought rights can be taken away.

People like DeSantis are attacking trans rights, and I think that’s why people here are apologising for him. DeSantis is also flagrantly attacking gay rights and women’s rights. Is he really worth defending? In general I think anti trans people need to be a lot, lot more careful about the allies they keep.

Are you in the UK? If so, you must have missed the whistleblower clinicians who were very clear that homophobic parents were taking their child to the clinic for treatments due to homophobia.

Maybe you have missed hearing about Susie Green who led Mermaids for years who admitted her husband didn’t want a homosexual son so transitioned Jackie at a very young age and took their son to Thailand for a penis inversion on their 16th birthday ?

And if you are not in the UK you might not be aware of how many parents find their child’s school records changed without their knowledge or permission to reflect new genders? I know of two friends who the school did this for. Same school, same year. I don’t know that many parents so I imagine this is uncommon if I know 2.

I do know that the students in class with my tween at the time used to jeer at others they thought were ‘gay’. And called each other ‘fag’. My tween is just 16, this is very recent. There were other homophobic incidents as well.

So, no. Homosexuality is not as well accepted as you think. And of the numerous teens with trans identities that I know, many are lesbians. One comment my teen has made is just how much entertainment media seems to them, to fetishise lesbians.

Of course, this should not be happening. Absolutely. However, the sexual orientation of the LGB is not the same as the T at all. Even though they have been forced together. You might think they should stand together, I don’t. The issues facing trans people are unique and need to be separated out from the issues facing LGB because in some instances the needs and demands of the T are in direct conflict with the needs of the LGB.

Saying their fight to be ‘normal’ is what holds them together is very misleading. It is forced teaming and it is a causing major issues such as when is it appropriate to teach children about gender identity vs homosexuality?

How many children are being told they have a gender identity in school? Not that they ‘might have one’ but that ‘everyone has one’. Because where do you start? Certainly not at a young age because that is causing distress in children thinking they might have something or not and it it isn’t definable. I reject that premise that ‘everyone’ has a gender identity. It is ideologically driven.

Maybe you have missed hearing about Susie Green who led Mermaids for years who admitted her husband didn’t want a homosexual son so transitioned Jackie at a very young age and took their son to Thailand for a penis inversion on their 16th birthday ?

It seems unlikely that they have also missed the similar story of Jazz Jennings in the US, which is much more recent and has been televised.

If this is all new to you @TraumatisedGooner, I suggest you read up about this and 'educate yourself' before commenting further.

What makes you think we're 'defending' DeSantis? And what is all this about 'allies'? Do you believe that agreeing with one tiny aspect of what someone else says makes you an 'ally' of that person? How does that work? If someone says that they're against the sterilisation of children, am I an 'ally' of that person if I agree with this statement, even if I disagree with everything else they say?

Are you also an 'ally' of DeSantis, since you agree that political views shouldn't be foisted on children?

And what makes you say that people posting here are 'anti trans'? Is it just because we're pro-women?

Here's the link to the Florida bill again, which is concerned with parental rights in education:
https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/PDF

This is the only mention of sexual orientation and gender identity:

3. Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards.

I asked you before what your specific objection to this paragraph is, and you replied with some waffle about abortion. Can you explain what your specific objection to this bill is based on? It doesn't say anything which implies that it's not 'okay to be gay' as far as I can see.

What makes you think we're 'defending' DeSantis? And what is all this about 'allies'? Do you believe that agreeing with one tiny aspect of what someone else says makes you an 'ally' of that person? How does that work?

Here is a question I have about all the TRAs who ask this on this board: we consistently brush it off because clearly don’t believe that agreeing on one subject makes us “allies” with anyone. But they do. What, exactly, are they telling us about themselves? Why are they showing up here telling us they’re allies or “aligned with with” Katie Dolatiwski and Isla Bryson? Because that is the direct logical implication of the nonsense they are spouting.

The issue with all this lazy 'look at your allies' is that it forgets a couple of things.

The belief in proven science is a universal belief. Very few people in the world believe that people can change sex. And even that, I would expect, may be a misguided belief around those people with medical conditions that get used to leverage the sex is not binary discussion.

With there being so few people who believe that others can change sex and who believe that not everyone (or even anyone) has a gender identity, 'allyship' is a ridiculous notion. Many of the people wishing to retain laws that maintain the integrity of 'sex' for when it needs to be prioritised above 'identity' do so for differing motivations. Some motivations are significantly different. They are not 'allies'.

Posters here agreeing with one or two things that a bill may achieve do not make posters 'allies' or 'followers' or even fucking making apologies for someone like DeSantis. This overly simplistic thinking shows a significant lack of ability to critically think about this issue. And it is now tropish messaging from people who want to shame and silence others.

FFS. Every time we hear that 'look at your allies' crap, let's just fucking roll out the horrific quotes from lauded spokespeople who have trans identities shall we. It certainly shuts up anyone trying to force 'allies' on feminists I have found.

I guess though if you believe someone can change sex they are probably not able to think critically in any case and are very accepting of anything that makes them feel most kind or most tolerant.

It's not really "backslid" is it?

Homosexuality has always been controversial because of the West's traditional religion Christianity. Also Judaism of course. And now there are significant Muslim populations.

So for one thing, any promotion in schools could contradict parents or students religious beliefs.

While acceptance of things like gay marriage has been strongly increasing in society, it's always been controversial.

Gender ideology is also controversial.

Some polling from the US:

"The new Deseret News/HarrisX poll, conducted from Jan. 6-10 among 1,828 voters, shows Americans are split almost down the middle when asked whether public school teachers should be allowed or prevented from teaching about gender and sexual identity in schools — 49% said it should be allowed while 51% said it should be prevented. The partisan split on this subject is extreme, with 7 in 10 Democrats approving, while almost 8 in 10 Republicans disapprove of teachers or other school personnel discussing sexual or gender identity with students."

https://www.deseret.com/2023/1/18/23548597/transgender-issues-in-schools-and-states-new-poll

How do you know if something is controversial in society? Well looking at religion or polling or public debate are all ways to know that.

From the UK here so I just had to quickly google how old kindergartener's actually are - Sorry, but in what universe is it acceptable to teach a 4-6 year old about sex at all, let alone homosexuality or gender...?

We didn't go over this stuff in schools until Year 6 where you're about 10-11 years old, and even then it was just about puberty and the basics of being safe with some drawn diagrams for how the "parts" actually worked together.

I'm sorry but 4-6 year olds do not need to know the intimate details of sex, straight or gay.
And they certainly don't need to be told that you can change your sex, when they still believe in magical flying reindeer and an old fat man who brings the whole world presents made by elves...

I get making a case for more education about puberty, but puberty is not intercourse, and puberty is not gender either.
I also get that "age appropriate" is vague, but presumably this leaves it to the discretion of the individual teacher/parent as to what's appropriate for that child?

Even when looking into it more to see if I've missed anything new; https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/apr/19/florida-education-board-approves-expansion-dont-say-gay-bill

The update is reported as saying this;
The rule states that Florida educators “shall not intentionally provide classroom instruction to students in grades four through 12 on sexual orientation or gender identity unless such instruction is either expressly required by state academic standards … or is part of a reproductive health course or health lesson for which a student’s parent has the option to have his or her student not attend.”

I can see obviously that expanding it to "all grades" seems like a slippery slope, but it doesn't specify gay. It says sexual orientation. Straight is also an orientation that presumably would be in the same boat.
It also specifically states that it does NOT apply to state academic standards, or lessons relating specifically to that like sex ed.
Perhaps I'm reading wrong, but to me it just reads as "You can have sexual education, just don't pump it full of ideology and fetish."

Yep, it's not even "don't say gay".

It's don't say gay or straight to very young children.* *

So you believe that children of gay parents shouldn’t be allowed to see their family dynamic represented in any learning materials but straight kids will?

No...?
But that's not what it's saying unless I severely misread it..? I'm lost?

More on the original thread title topic, Contrapoints posted this;
s

Only about halfway through, but so far it's all just talking about the "Think of the children rhetoric" - I don't even know what the retort to her points would be, as religious stance is just.. not the actual stance anyone gender critical has?

" The Parental Rights in Education Act does not explicitly contain the phrase "Don't Say Gay", though both "gender identity" and "sexual orientation" is referred to twice within the legislation.
The legislative provisions on prohibiting gender identity education restricts classroom discussion instigated by third parties and school personnel, such as teachers and principals. Discussion has an absolute prohibition from kindergarten to third grade, and discussion from fourth grade to the end of high school is required to be contextualized in a manner the state deems to be either "age appropriate" or "developmentally appropriate".
"

The reason i asked @TraumatisedGooner if they'd bothered to actually read the bill, was to see if they were arguing in good faith or not, i have to conclude that they're not.
As it says above, the bill doesn't say " don't say gay " anywhere in it, so in repeating that phrase, they are exaggerating and trying to put an over emotional spin on it, also they are lying by omission, as the phrase might as well say " don't say hetero ", due to discussion of heterosexuality being treat in the exact same way but of course, the likes of the goon, won't tell you that!

Perhaps though the goon, might like to explain to us why they think it appropriate to be discussing any aspect of sex/sexuality with 2 and 3 year olds?
As far as i'm concerned, the only people who are interested in the sexuality of children of that age are paedophiles. Is the goon saying that all gay people and all trans are paedophiles?
I'd also like to know why the goon thinks it right that so much damage can be done to children behind the backs of their parents, who are left with all the pieces to pick up long after the ideologues have left the scene but i'd like their reasoning of the paedophiliac demands of sexualising nursery age kids first.

I’m taken aback by the naivety/gullibility that leads you to be defending a bill that has seen such widespread condemnation.

I’d highly recommend this article, where lawyers explain what the bill means.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna19929

“Vagueness is deployed for certain purposes. People aren’t vague just because they’re ignorant; they’re not vague because they’re sloppy; they’re not vague because they’re lazy,” Copeland said. “Sometimes they’re intentionally vague to move the site of where the political fight is going to take place.”

Also you seem to be very confused about the American grade system. The 2022 bill affected teaching of those up to grade 4, who are as old as ten. The bill is now being expanded to all school grades. This isn’t about two and three year olds.

I’m taken aback by the naivety/gullibility that leads you to be defending a bill that has seen such widespread condemnation.

I’m taken aback that you expect people to just agree with the news rather than read the wording of the bill themselves and form their own opinions.

Critical thinking isn’t your strong point though!

Also you seem to be very confused about the American grade system. The 2022 bill affected teaching of those up to grade 4, who are as old as ten.

@TraumatisedGooner Most people posting here have probably never had a need to study how the American grade system works. But just to correct you on this, the original bill only prohibited teaching about sexual orientation and gender identity to those up to grade 3 (I believe grade 3 is age 8-9).

Can you explain what you believe children of this age (9 or under) need to know about homosexuality and transsexualism? My view is that all they need to know about homosexuality is that some children might live in a household with two same sex parents. And they don't need to know about transsexualism at all - this is not an appropriate topic for children this young to be learning about.

It's being expanded but older kids can learn about sexuality. You just have to teach from the state requirements. That should in theory make it clear to teachers what they are allowed to teach, and clear to parents what they can expect in lessons.

Quoting:

https://www.deseret.com/2023/1/18/23548597/transgender-issues-in-schools-and-states-new-poll

Among those who say schools and teachers should be allowed to discuss these topics, there is more agreement about when to introduce them, with 7 in 10 voters saying students should be middle school age or older. Even a majority of young people and Democrats disapprove of teaching students in fourth grade or younger about sexual or gender identity in schools.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/14/florida-teacher-disney-film-strange-world

Perhaps we shouldn't just dismiss gay rights groups when they explain what these laws are designed to do: hide homosexuality from children in an ignorant, irresponsible and dangerous attempt to stop them being gay.

The Florida law still allows teaching about homosexuality.

The laws are about stopping propaganda by certain teachers.

Let's assume that the teacher just happened to select that movie for other reasons.

The issue, is that in the case of Disney, they don't put homosexuality in their films just as a natural part of the story. So like some characters can be gay. Rather, it's done deliberately to target children with propaganda. The teacher is smart enough to know this. Disney would never have the villain be gay for example. It's a contrived story for political purposes.

To be clear, the motivation behind this 'propaganda' is... to turn children gay?

Nope, the motivation behind the propaganda is to convince gay children that they're straight, but in the wrong body. Gender identity ideology literally erases homosexuality by replacing "same-sex attraction" with "same-gender attraction". It's a homophobic and misogynist ideology, hence the pushback on this board.