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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Work DEI response: single-sex toilets

212 replies

ToriaB · 24/04/2023 15:24

Excerpted response below from my email to the head of DEI where I work; my question and his answer.

Tempted to respond by saying "Humans don't change sex".

Just to confirm – does this mean that [this higher education institution] are no longer offering single-sex facilities at the study centres?

No – there is no change to our facilities, [the higher education institution] are continuing to provide single-sex facilities. Trans men may use male designated toilets and Trans women may use female designated toilets, as is our current policy. We are also investigating the possibility of our accessible toilets broadening their scope so that they may be used as a gender-neutral, single-lockable space.

OP posts:
ToriaB · 26/05/2023 16:26

mateysmum · 26/05/2023 15:28

Can you include anything like "should I not receive a response from you I will forward my concerns to ( higher authority)".
If there is no sanction, then he can carry on ignoring you with impunity.
Is there anyone else you can copy in that might be helpful or are they all captured?
Clearly man has realised that he has no answer to your questions and so he is trying to ignore you and hope you will go away - cos after all you are wrong and he is right, no matter how wrong he is!! He doesn't know that he is messing with the Might of Mumsnet. The whole coven is behind you.😃

He's already been copying in our head of HR and the academic lead so can't really go much higher easily. The alternative is to go round and directly contact the academic lead for student experience because they will be the frontline when a student complains.

OP posts:
ToriaB · 26/05/2023 16:30

Have just sent with the please confirm you are refusing to provide answers version. Will see what comes back, if anything, as we enter the Holy Month of Pride. Still also need to chase on the - why are you linking to the GATE report and ILGA as Ally resources when these call LGB Alliance and Sex Matters hate organisations that incite violence?

OP posts:
OscarsAmmonite · 26/05/2023 16:32

Chortled at the Holy month of Pride. Happy Scottish Bus week, for those who observe.

Stemmingthetide · 28/05/2023 08:15

@ToriaB another piece of information you can use is the 2021 Census. I know the methodology for the question is flawed but it’s the best we have.

In the 2021 Census 93.5% of people who answered the voluntary question about gender identity stated their sex and gender were the same. Only 0.2% of respondents indicated they were a transman or a transwoman.

In view of this, is making all toilets unisex a proportionate way to achieve a legitimate aim?

Why exclude 93.5% of females by permitting 0.1% of transwomen to use female toilets. Is it not possible to make one male toilet in each building unisex and retain female toilets for biological females? A far more proportionate approach.

Add in details of what is appropriate for your buildings.

ToriaB · 22/06/2023 17:13

It still goes on!

Dear [Man]

I have still not received a response from you regarding my query below.
I understand that the institution is a Stonewall Diversity Champions and this year will be entering the UK Workplace Equality Index, at a time when many institutions are leaving the scheme following criticism that the organisation’s
advice undermines compliance with the Equality Act 2010.

A report by barrister Akua Reindorf for the University of Essex found that its policy on “Supporting Trans and Non Binary Staff”, reflecting Stonewall guidance, was not in line with the Equality Act and contributed to an environment of fear for staff holding dissenting views about sex and gender.

I am attaching a publication from Sex Matters “Understanding the risk of following Stonewall guidance – briefing for employers” which draws attention to the mismatches between current legislation and Stonewall’s guidance on ‘trans inclusion’. This notes that:

Stonewall is committed to the political project of “gender self-identification”. Across all of its guidance and training it advises employers to ignore the legally protected characteristic of sex and to treat self-identified gender as if this was the legally protected characteristic. The charity explicitly argues against taking a compliance approach and opposes using language in line with the Equality Act 2010. It says that the language of the law might be offensive. It calls for organisations to go “above and beyond the law”, and in the process induces them to misinterpret their legal freedom and capacity to act.

This ignores the potential for conflicts of rights with those who have other protected characteristics such as sex, sexual orientation and religion or belief.

Pages 26-30 specifically look at the Code of Practice guidance for toilets, showers and changing rooms and how Stonewall guidance reflects neither the law nor the Code of Practice.

You stated that you “do not feel the need to continue communicating further on this matter via email” and have not acknowledged receipt of any further correspondence from me regarding this matter, although I have repeatedly said I would welcome a meeting to discuss these concerns.

I would like to reiterate my concerns that that the institution risks reputational damage if this is not addressed prior to an incident of student complaint due to the lack of single-sex facilities, and that we are not compliant with workplace legislation for provision of the same. In the absence of a response from you to discuss this I will instead be approaching the Equality and Human Rights Commission and the Health and Safety Executive on this matter.

OP posts:
SeulementUneFois · 22/06/2023 22:35

Well done OP!
I see you mentioned a meeting, they make come back on that. I would make sure that it's either on Teams so you can record it, or if in person with a witness and similarly record it.

ArabeIIaScott · 22/06/2023 22:45

OP you're doing great work. They ought to listen; you're actually helping them out.

angelico53 · 23/06/2023 08:43

Keep it up. Great work.

BezMills · 23/06/2023 08:48

🖐 angelico, well met!

OhHolyJesus · 23/06/2023 09:11

Just coming here to say well done OP, keep going (I'm sure you will)!

Boiledbeetle · 23/06/2023 09:22

So they are at the if we ignore her existence completely she'll go away and we can pretend everything is great in la la land!

The fact that they've gone for total ignoring to me means they haven't given two thoughts to anyone but the chosen group and don't want to have to admit it.I

Keep at it OP!

HermioneWeasley · 24/06/2023 14:37

that is a storming letter - I can hear them panicking and squealing from here!

Redshoeblueshoe · 24/06/2023 15:19

I would respond - if they don't want to do this via email - let's do it via Twitter.

I'd pay to see that

MargotBamborough · 24/06/2023 15:28

I think I would go above his head and write to whoever he reports to.

Say you've been trying to engage with him on an Equality Act issue and hit a brick wall, and you feel he is not taking his DEI role seriously.

ArabeIIaScott · 24/06/2023 15:58

Redshoeblueshoe · 24/06/2023 15:19

I would respond - if they don't want to do this via email - let's do it via Twitter.

I'd pay to see that

oooh

DrBlackbird · 24/06/2023 16:43

There will be a clause about not bringing the reputation of the HEI into disrepute so not a good idea to take the argument to Twitter, but interesting how solidly the TWAW belief gives rise to a nonsensical position that single sex spaces remain single sex even when opening them up to TW.

Hey presto no need to do anything else. Convenient in how it ignores that the T = transgender and impossible to engage with such magical thinking. They have to disengage/ remain silent because there’s no logical response. Our HEI just posted slides on supporting our LGBTQ+ students. No prizes for which letter took up most of the slides with ‘Stonewall’ the only reference for stats.

2userspast3 · 24/06/2023 18:08

This kind of challenge is exactly what these institutions need to hear. I can imagine that you may well be under a lot of stress from this OP (depending on your personality type), so 👏for keeping going.

ToriaB · 26/06/2023 09:14

Response from DEI Man's boss: She/Her/Hers and LGBTQI+ Ally

[Institution] provides single-sex facilities in all University buildings. Individuals protected by the policy and law continue to be supported and treated with dignity and respect.

We do not share your concerns as we have already responded several times to your previous emails.

We are happy to physically meet with you to discuss this further but would ask that you please refrain from sending attachments from Sex Matters and repeatedly sending emails relating to the same topic which we have already advised we will no longer be engaging with you on via email.

You are entitled to approach and converse to whoever you feel appropriate, however, be clear that you do not represent [Institution] in your communications and please also consider how your own views and position will be perceived with said bodies.

OP posts:
ToriaB · 26/06/2023 09:16

So they're doubling down that single-sex means allowing men to identify into women's toilets, and emphasising that they will meet but only physically.
With the latter I'm tempted to push for the meeting to be online as a reasonable adjustment; I work from home and have health conditions that would make it physically and emotionally difficult to go to a hostile meeting in person. As well as wanting to have any such meeting recorded.

OP posts:
Redshoeblueshoe · 26/06/2023 09:18

So basically they are saying shut up you silly woman.

angelico53 · 26/06/2023 09:19

Just occurred to me - have you had legal advice on this and are you in aposition to bring a case related to EA? Or is there a legal route via safeguarding risks unaddressed?

Apols if you've already nailed this. And can I just say what a bunch of arseholes they are?

dimorphism · 26/06/2023 09:27

angelico53 · 26/06/2023 09:19

Just occurred to me - have you had legal advice on this and are you in aposition to bring a case related to EA? Or is there a legal route via safeguarding risks unaddressed?

Apols if you've already nailed this. And can I just say what a bunch of arseholes they are?

This. I also think it would be reasonable to contact any Muslim student groups (IIRC you said there was a large Muslim community within the student body) and ask if they are aware of the policy and whether they were consulted. Or indeed a women's group or other religious groups. Any group that will be disadvantaged by this policy of conflating sex with gender.

ArabeIIaScott · 26/06/2023 09:40

emphasising that they will meet but only physically.

They know they're in the wrong.

ArabeIIaScott · 26/06/2023 10:38

And very well done for your persistence, OP.

I wonder what EHRC would say to this issue?

MargotBamborough · 26/06/2023 10:43

ToriaB · 26/06/2023 09:16

So they're doubling down that single-sex means allowing men to identify into women's toilets, and emphasising that they will meet but only physically.
With the latter I'm tempted to push for the meeting to be online as a reasonable adjustment; I work from home and have health conditions that would make it physically and emotionally difficult to go to a hostile meeting in person. As well as wanting to have any such meeting recorded.

Do you have any solicitor friends?

I'd be tempted to say yes but that you will be bringing legal representation and recording the meeting.

If they say yes to the legal representation but no to the recording, record it secretly anyway (easier if the meeting is via Team) and then produce detailed written minutes which you share with them afterwards and ask them to confirm whether they agree with your record of what was said or dispute any of it.