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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How will we protect biological womens' safe spaces practically ?

44 replies

Samphiredragonfly · 13/04/2023 23:52

Absolutely agree that female changing rooms and bathrooms should be exclusively for biological females but how would this be policed if Kemi Badenoch is successful in changing the Equality act ? Not a criticism but just wondering how this will be enforced in the case of trans women that 'pass ' reasonably well.

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SeulementUneFois · 14/04/2023 00:00

The thing is, that's really quite rare.
If you look at their forums, there's so many people who arse it... social transition before hormones; not bothering / too much trouble to shave daily. Etc. (I mean men who don't pretend they're women manage to shave every day!)

AmuseBish · 14/04/2023 00:07

"Enforced"? I don't think it will be - as per now (/ recent past anyway) we hope that people are decent enough to stick to the 'social contract' of going to any segregated space for your sex, or a mixed-sex space.
I think most people are honest enough to do this. No-one is saying that single-sex
spaces solve all problems, but they do reduce risk.

rabbitwoman · 14/04/2023 00:16

I think rather than keeping people who should not be there out, mainly it gives us and facility providers back the power to challenge anyone in our safe spaces.

I also think that toilet and changing room provision are the tip of the iceberg. It will mean that when you ask for a female nurse or carer or therapist that's what you will get - any man claiming to be female won't count.

If you are arrested and need to be searched it will be by a female, not a man claiming to be female. And a flasher/ rapist/ abuser etc who is arrested won't be able to say he is female just to get a female officer to search him for a final thrill.

Any space, be it online or face to face, will be able to legally impose female only boundaries - this means groups for breastfeeding mums, therapy sessions, even online dating and lesbian - or gay men - only meetings.

We seem powerless at the moment to maintain our boundaries because a man just has to say those magic words ' I am a trans woman' and we can do nothing about it.....

But this does also give us the option to include trans women should we want to, which it would seem some people are happy about. And trans men can also, if they wish, include or exclude themselves as appropriate. Men will also have the choice to include or exclude trans men from similar spaces where appropriate.

I just don't get why it's so hard......

BettyFilous · 14/04/2023 00:27

They’re not “safe spaces”, they’re single sex spaces. I really hate the way slippery language like this is inserted into discussion. The next move in the TRA’s game is so transparent: they’re safe spaces and transwomen need to be safe too so…. No. They’re single sex spaces and services so women can undress, receive intimate care, sleep and discuss their trauma without males present. End of. It’s pure conjecture that males pass as women in real life. There are so many subtle physical cues, women can tell.

Bosky · 14/04/2023 00:43

Samphiredragonfly · 13/04/2023 23:52

Absolutely agree that female changing rooms and bathrooms should be exclusively for biological females but how would this be policed if Kemi Badenoch is successful in changing the Equality act ? Not a criticism but just wondering how this will be enforced in the case of trans women that 'pass ' reasonably well.

If they pass then no one will be any the wiser unless they decide to flash their dick.

Jenn Smith mentions this early on in this video:

CLIP: The Transgender Jedi Mind Trick

Let's be honest about how few actually pass IRL.

As for the rest, including blokes who are basically tailgating TW into women's spaces, we can only hope that there is a swift return to the days when there was little if any need to "police" entry to female changing rooms and toilets. Men stayed out because they knew that they were not meant to be in there, would not be welcome in there and the vast majority did not want to be in there.

Where possible, I think that there should also be a "mixed sex" option. Women who want to make TW feel welcome there by having female company, or who advocate for mixed-sex spaces for some other bizarre reason, are perfectly welcome to use those spaces instead of female-only spaces.

CountZacular · 14/04/2023 00:55

The thing is, if this mythical pool of passing TW really existed we just wouldn’t be having these conversations. Nobody would have noticed or considered it an issue. Angry TRAs wouldn’t have needed to make huge statements and protesting to gain access.

And that’s why I hate the ‘passing’ argument. Yes, it’s still incredibly disrespectful for a ‘passing’ TW to use a female-only space but it wouldn’t cause the same alarm if literally nobody could tell the difference. So we have to assume all of this fuss is precisely because TW can’t pass.

As for how it will be ‘enforced’ - well it can’t be, can’t it. We’ve never had security on toilet or changing room doors in my life time so why would that start now. But if we could get back to the norm of women’s spaces being socially and culturally known as female-only, it would be much easier to call out men who shouldn’t be there. Like it used to be.

oakleaffy · 14/04/2023 02:17

TW are able to come to women only spaces of a group I attend.

It completely changes the dynamic, and for me, the feeling of 'Safety'.

The TW says they are ''Lesbian'', yet how can a TW be a Lesbian? they surely must mean they are a straight if they want to have sex with lesbians.

There has been a case where a TW was asked to leave a vulnerable woman';s space because the TW showed ''Something unsuitable'' {Porn} to a woman.

The people running the group say ''We are inclusive''...so the rights of one trump the feelings of others?
I'm so over it.

Blaire White does call out this kind of stuff.

oakleaffy · 14/04/2023 02:23

SeulementUneFois · 14/04/2023 00:00

The thing is, that's really quite rare.
If you look at their forums, there's so many people who arse it... social transition before hormones; not bothering / too much trouble to shave daily. Etc. (I mean men who don't pretend they're women manage to shave every day!)

They really don't care from what I see.

They know they have a Magical force field around them by saying ''I'm a TW who is a Lesbian'' and they are welcomed into women only spaces {That's my personal experience}.

Women can nearly always tell a TW a mile off.

Bosky · 14/04/2023 02:56

CountZacular · 14/04/2023 00:55

The thing is, if this mythical pool of passing TW really existed we just wouldn’t be having these conversations. Nobody would have noticed or considered it an issue. Angry TRAs wouldn’t have needed to make huge statements and protesting to gain access.

And that’s why I hate the ‘passing’ argument. Yes, it’s still incredibly disrespectful for a ‘passing’ TW to use a female-only space but it wouldn’t cause the same alarm if literally nobody could tell the difference. So we have to assume all of this fuss is precisely because TW can’t pass.

As for how it will be ‘enforced’ - well it can’t be, can’t it. We’ve never had security on toilet or changing room doors in my life time so why would that start now. But if we could get back to the norm of women’s spaces being socially and culturally known as female-only, it would be much easier to call out men who shouldn’t be there. Like it used to be.

"The thing is, if this mythical pool of passing TW really existed we just wouldn’t be having these conversations. Nobody would have noticed or considered it an issue. Angry TRAs wouldn’t have needed to make huge statements and protesting to gain access.

And that’s why I hate the ‘passing’ argument. Yes, it’s still incredibly disrespectful for a ‘passing’ TW to use a female-only space but it wouldn’t cause the same alarm if literally nobody could tell the difference. So we have to assume all of this fuss is precisely because TW can’t pass."

Spot on!

There is the same disingenuousness from all those sleazy men who argue for "gender neutral" toilets and changing rooms - only out of the goodness of their hearts, of course, to make trans people feel comfortable. When, oddly enough, it turns out that "gender neutral" spaces and "third spaces" are the last things that TW want. The only people who benefit from "gender neutral" ie. mixed-sex, spaces are sleazy men.

Helleofabore · 14/04/2023 05:13

This ‘enforcement’ issue is really just distraction.

Were we ever able to ‘enforce’ access to publicly open spaces? No.

But we could call security/police etc. We could make so much noise to alert others. This was how it was in the past

Now we have no recourse. At all.

Any male who respected women and girl’s and their need for their own spaces will not enter. Males who have no respect for female single sex spaces and those female people’s needs will be the ones we should be very wary of however they present themselves.

Samphiredragonfly · 14/04/2023 07:20

@Helleofabore that’s a good point about having no recourse to help because TW would have every legal right to be there.

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Helleofabore · 14/04/2023 07:25

I find the threat from activists about enforcement (and it is a threat) to infantilise grown arsed male people.

If a male knows their presence in female single sex spaces can cause distress, they then deliberately choose to cause any distress felt by female people or any age, in that space.

To deny that they make this choice is removing their agency to make that choice. And is infantilising those male people.

Random789 · 14/04/2023 07:36

It isn't a question of 'enforcing' anything. The clarification will just give employers, service providers, public bodies the right to exclude men from women's spaces, retaining the status quo that has been well-established forever but is now under threat.

Thaat means that these spaces can be properly flagged as women's and providers of them can ask people to leave or take other kinds of appropriate action. No one will be pre-emptively scanning for sex, in relation to most services

As for people 'passing' this will happen to the same extent as it ever did. I imagine that there have always been a few transwomen slpping into toilets etc, sometimes because of a genuine fear of harrassment in the men's spaces and sometimes for malign reasons.

Where it is aproblem, women will have the confidence to make a complaint. Where it isn't a problem most women would probably do what must have happen for ages until TRAs fucked everything up: turn a blind eye out of kindness.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 14/04/2023 07:37

Single sex spaces, not safe spaces.

Threads like these do my head in. it’s basically ‘oooh but you can’t actually stop TW coming in can you, I mean not really so why bother even trying, you might as well just give up’

until 5 minutes ago men stayed out of women’s spaces because we, the collective we, had a social contract where we knew full well what spaces were reserved for women and which were ok to be mixed. However thanks to a minority of very very loud narcissistic TW & their allies we’re now expected to believe that it’s all sooooo hard to have single sex spaces backed up by stonewall lying to ppl about what the law says. Decent men whether they were wearing a dress or not would stay the fuck out of women’s spaces.

and for the record, back in the days when we were told it was only 5000 old ppl, men who wanted to transition were told to use womens spaces to demonstrate that they were serious about transitioning. No one ever actually bothered to ask women if they were ok with that

Samphiredragonfly · 14/04/2023 07:54

@Theeyeballsinthesky just asking. Sorry for getting the terminology wrong.

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MrsOvertonsWindow · 14/04/2023 08:28

Agree with those pointing out it's the breaking down of the social contact - not enforcement issues. We need to reinforce that boundaries are there for a reason, that children should be free from the influence of dubious lobby groups, that women and girls have the right to say no to males without being accused of bigotry

Nancy Kelly of Stonewall unintentionally did us a huge favour when she specified that the end game was to remove the rights of lesbians to socialise with other women without men's presence, that women's sport must be sacrificed in favour of men and that women had no rights to anything single sex without the presence of these men.

EmotionalSupportHyena · 14/04/2023 08:37

We don’t need to ‘police’ them because transwomen are lovely and won’t force their way into places they don’t belong… right?

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 14/04/2023 11:48

@Samphiredragonfly

A "perfect TW" genuinely passing with a GRC who can use the ladies and behave perfectly normally will theoretically, it's fair to say, not cause any stress or fear to the women sharing the facilities or be remotely intimidating. I do not deny that any such people exist, theoretically as I wouldn't notice them you could argue that there's a confirmation bias to thinking no TW pass properly as the ones you notice didn't. OTOH I've seen persuasive evidence that men and women seem to look for /at different stuff when deciding the sex of a stranger and seen plenty of TW whose sex was perfectly and immediately evident to me who were totally confident that were the most gorgeous and should and did definitely pass for sure. And that's the crux of the problem, a man who has gone to significant time effort and expense to hide the fact that he's a man and believes he has been successful is likely to feel rather upset, embarrassed, even offended by being told he didn't do as good of a job as his (mostly male) friends told him he did.

If the problem is men in women's toilets are intimidating and uncomfortable for women. You can't possibly write a policy or law that actually differentiates based on how effectively a man is hiding the fact that he's a man. That can vary from day to day and even from minute to minute. Any rule which says that women are responsible for judging the appearance of TW and effectively telling them that they aren't pretty enough / good enough so they shouldn't be here is a terrible idea because that's a shitty and unreasonable place to draw the line. It is shitty for the TW and does absolutely nothing to 'fix' the problem of women's dignity privacy and needing to feel safe and comfortable. You can't be here because you didn't do your hair properly today and I can tell that you're a man, but you are entitled to be here when you're having a good hair day is not a solution.

So there is no way to keep out the 'will upset and intimidate women' TW without also saying the 'will pass actually' TW should also not be there as TW it turns out are actually sometimes really rubbish at telling whether they are passing or if women are just being too polite to say that they aren't. And that's even before you get into the requirements of certain religious groups where women need to be able to access a single sex space to participate in society. Or the fact that certain TW seem to really want to intimidate and upset women.

Clarity that its ok to say this particular group / changing room / toilet area is single sex sends a clear message of who is entitled to be there. Therefore if someone is there who is not entitled to be there is you can reasonably ask them to leave. Women can then expect back-up from police / management, should they need it, to enforce a clear and consistent rule. This loo is not for TW is a much fairer and more sensible rule than this loo is not for TW who aren't pretty enough.

Shoplifting is illegal but it does still happen, stopping people from shoplifting is not necessarily easy. As a shopkeeper of course you don't notice every time someone shoplifts but it does mean if you catch someone you can bar them and/or call the police. And if you see them again you can tell them to bugger off.

Which is where we come back to third spaces; I mean let's be clear TW can use the men's - assaulting someone is already against the law, should a man assault a TW in the changing rooms or loos he is in the wrong and should frankly be prosecuted. TW should be able to rely on the police or management to support them if such an incident occurred. But given how vocally supportive so many men are of TW it feels like men aren't so hostile as we're being asked to believe.

I think when GRC were first introduced women assumed the gatekeeping would be better, that in order to get a GRC men would be in that 'perfect' category by behaviour if not always completely by appearance. That someone would be in effect performing checks and balances that considered women's dignity and privacy before issuing the GRC. That the TW would be those we wouldn't notice. That hasn't worked and it clearly isn't what Trans people are saying they want.

You can have non binary identities or even 57 genders, gender fluidity, no gatekeeping culture - but then you can't have your sex based rights changing day by day. and this is where the wise women of mumsnet have been for some time; It becomes a question of do all men or none have the right to walk into the women's loos, women's changing rooms, etc. Basically sex based categories have to remain sex based as gender identity is too fluid personal and nebulous to be of use where sex matters.

Anyone, regardless of their feelings on gender identity; if they would claim one or which one they would claim, can resist sexist bullshit where sex doesn't matter.

EndIessTea · 14/04/2023 12:22

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howdoesatoastermaketoast · 14/04/2023 12:35

@EndIessTea yeah I think you raise some good practical points

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 14/04/2023 12:42

It's for clarification.

When a service is for women, some believe its for female sex, others think that includes GRC aquired sex, and some think it means men with the PC of GR.

So users and service providers dont know who they can expect to see in the spaces or who can be excluded.

Its not just public toilets and changing rooms, its hospital wards, prisons, therapy sessions. So some SSE are very easy to police if the guidance is clear.

PorcelinaV · 14/04/2023 12:42

If it's single sex then very few males could get away with it.

If it's "non-binary" and "wherever you feel most comfortable" then every male could get away with it.

You don't need to be checking people's genitals for the policy to be making a big difference.

KG74 · 14/04/2023 12:55

I tend to get misgendered in women's toilets as I am pretty butch. I tend to carry a passport but even then, women have wanted to throw me out of the ladies, despite being born and raised and living as a female. I often just have to ignore whoever is having a go at me or show them I am carrying my stained mooncup with me! So far, nobody has suggested how we deal with this issue for those of us who do look rather non-gendered or masculine.

EmotionalSupportHyena · 14/04/2023 12:56

KG74 · 14/04/2023 12:55

I tend to get misgendered in women's toilets as I am pretty butch. I tend to carry a passport but even then, women have wanted to throw me out of the ladies, despite being born and raised and living as a female. I often just have to ignore whoever is having a go at me or show them I am carrying my stained mooncup with me! So far, nobody has suggested how we deal with this issue for those of us who do look rather non-gendered or masculine.

I’ve always found that simple one to one interaction makes the mistake obvious.

EndIessTea · 14/04/2023 13:04

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