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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How will we protect biological womens' safe spaces practically ?

44 replies

Samphiredragonfly · 13/04/2023 23:52

Absolutely agree that female changing rooms and bathrooms should be exclusively for biological females but how would this be policed if Kemi Badenoch is successful in changing the Equality act ? Not a criticism but just wondering how this will be enforced in the case of trans women that 'pass ' reasonably well.

OP posts:
EndIessTea · 14/04/2023 13:05

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This has been deleted as the poster is not a genuine poster.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 14/04/2023 13:09

Terminology matters in understanding this question. It's not 'safe', it's 'single sex'. And it's not 'spaces' it's 'provision'.

'Spaces' like loos and changing rooms - that are hardest to enforce - are a small (and arguably among the least important) part of what is covered.

Enforcement mechanisms are self evident when it comes to most of the wider area of 'provision' - prisons, sports, hospital wards, staff providing intimate care, rape crisis centres, refuges, all-women shortlists ... none of these need a change from 'just wander in' to active checking.

happydappy2 · 14/04/2023 13:10

It’s really not that difficult to do with adults, we women can recognise sex. The problem is when institutions such as Girl Guides allow self ID, so boys who identify as a girl can sleep in the girls accommodation-It is slightly harder to correctly sex a young person.

denim1700 · 14/04/2023 14:54

Who believes women are screaming at a poor butch lady so much so that she carries a passport and defensively displays her bloodied mooncup on demand lol. Writes like a TIM.

EndIessTea · 14/04/2023 15:02

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This has been deleted as the poster is not a genuine poster.

Nellodee · 14/04/2023 15:07

Not at all the point, and i'm in no way suggesting it as more than a sci-fi now solution, but I bet that AI would do a pretty convincing job of policing entry either already, or at some point in the near future.

I tried to look up how good these systems were right now, and got a couple of articles saying they were terrible, because they failed to identify trans people as their acquired gender. Make of that what you will.

Beowulfa · 14/04/2023 15:13

Nellodee · 14/04/2023 15:07

Not at all the point, and i'm in no way suggesting it as more than a sci-fi now solution, but I bet that AI would do a pretty convincing job of policing entry either already, or at some point in the near future.

I tried to look up how good these systems were right now, and got a couple of articles saying they were terrible, because they failed to identify trans people as their acquired gender. Make of that what you will.

Didn't they recently discover (by accident, they were researching something else) that retina scans are massively accurate for sexing individuals?

My partner once ended up in the womens loos (by accident, whilst in a new work location) and he described waiting in the cubicle in a cold sweat for it to be quiet enough to make a run for it. The fear of being "that fucking weirdo bloke who went into the Ladies" is what protected single sex spaces until the madness of the past few years.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 14/04/2023 15:18

The argument seems to be that we can't have single sex spaces because women get mistaken for TW or men, men would come in anyway, and the idea of seeing a TM would make us quivering wrecks.

Never, ever anything to do with tw not looking female.

EmotionalSupportHyena · 14/04/2023 16:25

Beowulfa · 14/04/2023 15:13

Didn't they recently discover (by accident, they were researching something else) that retina scans are massively accurate for sexing individuals?

My partner once ended up in the womens loos (by accident, whilst in a new work location) and he described waiting in the cubicle in a cold sweat for it to be quiet enough to make a run for it. The fear of being "that fucking weirdo bloke who went into the Ladies" is what protected single sex spaces until the madness of the past few years.

Retina scans:

https://www.infobae.com/en/2022/03/15/an-artificial-intelligence-system-predicted-the-sex-of-people-just-by-analyzing-their-eyes/?outputType=amp-type

An artificial intelligence system predicted the sex of people just by analyzing their eyes

It is a model based on deep learning that was trained with photos of retinas. Applications in the field of medicine

https://www.infobae.com/en/2022/03/15/an-artificial-intelligence-system-predicted-the-sex-of-people-just-by-analyzing-their-eyes/?outputType=amp-type

IwantToRetire · 14/04/2023 16:27

This has come up on other threads and the thinking that it is going to be too difficult is more the consequence of the sucess of the TRAs in not only confusing sex with gender, but also asserting falsely that those who self identify cant be excluded.

What needs to happen is a total cultural change, or rather undoing the damage done by the aggressive TRA campaign to colonise not just women's spaces eg toilets but single sex provision ie women's support services.

This is going to hard to do because so many people and the media re-inforce the idea that women dont, or shouldn't mind, if they are forced to be with a biolocigal male in places where formally they would never have dared enter.

So the cultural change, or going back to what was / is the division of spaces, services and support based on biological sex is going to be hard to do.

It also means institutions need to be much clearer that toilets or whatever are provided on the basis of same sex.

And given how far down the road (and money spent) on creating "gender neutral" facilities many will be loathe to do it. (Gender neutral being one of those weasel word phrases meaning if you are kind and up to date you would feel forced to accept that that is how the world has "moved on".)

And more importantly institutions and providers need to be made aware that even under existing law they can apply the EA single sex exemptions.

Long before TRAs pushed their agenda, too many places, such as the NHS, under the guise of cost cutting, gave up the provision of single sex services.

Because underneath all of this is the misogynistic lack of respect for women. The MRAs have piggy backed on the TRA sucess, so too many women whether as users of providers feel unable to speak up for their / our rights.

We need groups in every region, town or city, acting as monitors to see that those providing services or facilities.

Only in (re)creating a social norm that biological males do not belong in women's spaces, services will it be easier to "enforce" ie because it will become abnormal for a man to be seen trying to enter a women's facility.

Not forgetting that if the wording of the EA is changed to make it clear that references to sex mean biological sex, this would be an additional basis on which to challenge.

And unfortunately we need the national media to take this up to help (re)create this as the norm

But as so many papers and news channels are completely Stonewalled and wanting to be kind, this is going to be hard.

WarriorN · 14/04/2023 16:45

For me it's about resurrecting those boundaries in every day life / the national conscience and the reasons for them being underscored and we being able to assert them without any fear.

It should be socially unacceptable for TW to consider using women's spaces. Those who make a fuss should be seen as red flags.

We will never fully be able to stop anyone going in a loo they shouldn't but hopefully it will discourage the boldness that's been going on, plus the way companies are eroding those boundaries without any accountability.

nepeta · 14/04/2023 18:33

Agree with several others in this thread about the problem using 'safe spaces' in this context. It suggests we can guarantee safety in some spaces but that other spaces are to be left unsafe, and it doesn't state who it is who is supposed to be safe in women's single-sex spaces.

Also agree that this is a problem with the implicit social contract being broken by trans activists (not necessarily trans people). That implicit contract meant that most people self-policed their own choices of toilets, changing rooms etc., so that the few who violated the rules could be more easily spotted and requests for help immediately made.

Once that contract is broken, it's harder to make a complaint because the complainer could then be accused of being a transphobic bigot. Thinking that situation over takes some of the very short time available away before a possible assault begins.

raspberrywine · 14/04/2023 18:54

Sorry but I get past the title of the thread with "safe spaces". It's not safe spaces, it's single sex spaces. Please use single space.

Keir Starmer uses "women's safe spaces". It's meaningless when he thinks men can be women. That's why he never says single sex spaces.

Women safe spaces are used to obfuscate, and erode our rights.

raspberrywine · 14/04/2023 18:55

*Please use single sex spaces.

raspberrywine · 14/04/2023 18:58

Also, if we said "women's single sex space" then there's no need to put biological women. As far as I am concerned there is only one type of women.

IwantToRetire · 14/04/2023 19:20

One of the ironies of Labour fabricating the phrase "safe spaces" (done so they dont have to use the word sex - the pathetic hypocrites) is that unintentionally says that women aren't safe unless they are in a "space" where there are only other (biological) women.

So in going all out not to offend trans sensibilities they have sub consciously revealed that they know women aren't safe when biological males are included.

Bosky · 15/04/2023 01:50

I agree with your conclusion but I don't think it is "fabricated" so much as revealing the hidden hand of the Alphabet People, who do love their "safe spaces".

When there are so many variations on the meaning of "safe spaces" they become weasel words in the mouth of a politician.

In the mouth of a politician who is also a lawyer, and lawyers know to be very careful with their words, they are a deliberate deflection, verbal smoke and mirrors.

Going back to speculation that he is afraid or has maybe bought into the gender-woo-woo. Perhaps both are true? Maybe there is yet another "trans child" perched somewhere in the family tree, demanding to be affirmed and appeased?

Bamboux · 15/04/2023 02:00

KG74 · 14/04/2023 12:55

I tend to get misgendered in women's toilets as I am pretty butch. I tend to carry a passport but even then, women have wanted to throw me out of the ladies, despite being born and raised and living as a female. I often just have to ignore whoever is having a go at me or show them I am carrying my stained mooncup with me! So far, nobody has suggested how we deal with this issue for those of us who do look rather non-gendered or masculine.

I spent several years hanging out in predominantly lesbian social circles and I never, ever, even once confused a butch lesbian for a man.

Bamboux · 15/04/2023 02:03

denim1700 · 14/04/2023 14:54

Who believes women are screaming at a poor butch lady so much so that she carries a passport and defensively displays her bloodied mooncup on demand lol. Writes like a TIM.

What women generally do if we think there is a bloke in the loo with us is get the fuck out of there as quickly as possible.

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