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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Intersex + transgender?

59 replies

Piplette · 13/04/2023 21:12

Firstly, I have no desire to offend anyone /cause controversy and am genuinely curious and looking for views on this.

If an individual is intersex (xxy), has lived 40 odd years as male but then chooses to live as a female including changing their official gender would they be classed as transgender? And would you consider them now female?

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EmotionalSupportHyena · 13/04/2023 21:19

XXY men are taller than average men with smaller than average testicles. Nothing female at all about men with Klinefelter Syndrome.

What a weird (and insulting!) question to ask.

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Intersex + transgender?
DemiColon · 13/04/2023 21:22

I think it might depend mainly on the reason the person made the change, tbh. At least for me.

I knew a kid growing up who was raised as a girl. In his early 20s he transitioned and had what we all considered a sex change. In fact this person was a biological male with a dsd. So I would say that he chose to live as his true sex, even though I believe there was some reconstructive surgery involved, and of course it was weird for people to get used to.

It's not very common now though with kids in that situation to be raised as girls like he was.

KohlaParasaurus · 13/04/2023 21:23

Yes, they would be classed as transgender. No, they would not be female. People whose sex chromosomes are XXY are male, however they identify, and XXY is not an intersex condition.

Piplette · 13/04/2023 21:24

Why is this weird or insulting? I have stated only facts and asked questions genuinely seeking clarity.

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Piplette · 13/04/2023 21:26

KohlaParasaurus · 13/04/2023 21:23

Yes, they would be classed as transgender. No, they would not be female. People whose sex chromosomes are XXY are male, however they identify, and XXY is not an intersex condition.

That's really interesting - I wasnt aware of that.

I know of an individual who says they are intersex xxy so can that not be the case?

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EmotionalSupportHyena · 13/04/2023 21:27

Piplette · 13/04/2023 21:24

Why is this weird or insulting? I have stated only facts and asked questions genuinely seeking clarity.

Men with small testicles (the most notable symptom of Klinefelters) are still men!

Surely you can see that inferring that they are not men is insulting?

Piplette · 13/04/2023 21:32

EmotionalSupportHyena · 13/04/2023 21:27

Men with small testicles (the most notable symptom of Klinefelters) are still men!

Surely you can see that inferring that they are not men is insulting?

If you notice from my subsequent post, my question is driven by and individual I know who claims to be xxy intersex.

They have identified themselves as intersex and also female not me.

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PonyPatter44 · 13/04/2023 21:35

I think your friend is attention-seeking, rather than intersex.

Piplette · 13/04/2023 21:36

DemiColon · 13/04/2023 21:22

I think it might depend mainly on the reason the person made the change, tbh. At least for me.

I knew a kid growing up who was raised as a girl. In his early 20s he transitioned and had what we all considered a sex change. In fact this person was a biological male with a dsd. So I would say that he chose to live as his true sex, even though I believe there was some reconstructive surgery involved, and of course it was weird for people to get used to.

It's not very common now though with kids in that situation to be raised as girls like he was.

Thank you for this. I would agree with that view that it was more about transition to their biological sex - in the situation I'm referring to and that triggered my question that clearly isn't the case from some of the information provided by others.

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Theeyeballsinthesky · 13/04/2023 21:37

People with DSD (difference or disorders of sexual development) are still either male or female

if someone male born with a DSD decides to identify as female they are still male & and a TW not a woman

EmotionalSupportHyena · 13/04/2023 21:38

Why didn’t you just Google it?

Lots of trans people say they are intersex but XXY Syndrome is not a difference of sexual development.

The few genuine DSDs that are mistaken for the opposite sex at birth are the other way (children who appear female due to ambiguous genitalia or female phenotype who are discovered to be genetically male at puberty).

Piplette · 13/04/2023 21:39

PonyPatter44 · 13/04/2023 21:35

I think your friend is attention-seeking, rather than intersex.

They do show other signs of attention seeking but the mis-representation of their biological sex is more concerning - not because I have any issue with transgender people but I'm uncomfortable with mistruths.

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SpicyMoth · 13/04/2023 21:40

I haven't looked into intersex super extensively to preface this, but from what I understand it's generally seen that in the case of intersex individuals, as they grow up and go through puberty their body naturally veers toward showing more characteristics of one sex over the other.

I believe that's where the term "sex assigned at birth" originally came from before it got warped into applying to everybody.
Originally doctors would make a decision based on the intersex baby's genitalia (which part seemed more dominant to them) what that babies sex is, and typically surgeries would be done when to align with the doctor's decision in the name of giving them an easier life.

In that circumstance specifically I could understand that perhaps literally having a doctor assigning a sex to someone who is clearly in between and taking surgical measures to "correct" this, probably shouldn't ever be done. Especially to a literal baby that obviously cannot consent.
Mistakes can happen, and I feel like even a doctor can't realistically know one way or the other in that ambiguous context until the person has gone through puberty.

At which point I feel it would be fairly obvious that the individual was probably genuinely "mis-gendered" at birth for want of a better word, because their body would show that from how their puberty manifested.
Does that make sense?

In the opposing case where lets say their puberty veered more towards male than female and they still decided to change gender, I'd be probably a bit confused tbh?
And a bit concerned about size difference/strength difference/privacy etc still, but for the most part I just think everyone should live their life how they want as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

So I guess it kind of depends on how puberty manifested itself for them honestly, I think that's the only somewhat fair way to approach it because it's puberty that creates or exacerbates the differences between males and females.

Piplette · 13/04/2023 21:42

EmotionalSupportHyena · 13/04/2023 21:38

Why didn’t you just Google it?

Lots of trans people say they are intersex but XXY Syndrome is not a difference of sexual development.

The few genuine DSDs that are mistaken for the opposite sex at birth are the other way (children who appear female due to ambiguous genitalia or female phenotype who are discovered to be genetically male at puberty).

I did but wanted more clarity as I had no reason to not believe that this individuals claims were untrue.

You seem to be looking to be looking for a reason to be offended so while I'm grateful for the info provided perhaps you might want to step away now.

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Blaueblumen · 13/04/2023 21:52

People whose sex chromosomes are XXY are male

Men with small testicles (the most notable symptom of Klinefelters) are still men!

It's really not complicated, op.

nauticant · 13/04/2023 21:52

These days "intersex" is a contested term, mainly because it is simply misleading as suggesting a state existing "between the sexes", and if it's being used by an "intersex person", chances are they're making a political point around gender identities. Also, there's a likelihood that they don't have a DSD condition.

Boomboom22 · 13/04/2023 21:57

Intersex is not the correct term. Do you use the term spastic for cerebral palsy? No? Then use dsd for intersex. There is no such thing as a person who is actually intersex, ie both sexes. All individuals with a dsd are either male or female.

NotBadConsidering · 13/04/2023 21:57

Chromosomal aneuploidies like Klinefelter and Turner syndrome have been swept up in the “intersex” category because it helps trans activists conflate the numbers to allow better exploitation of the “sex is a spectrum!” lie.

If your friend describes himself as intersex is probably because he’s been poorly informed by one of these types of discussions. He is male. He has an extra chromosome. He is not intersex and doesn’t have a DSD.

Blaueblumen · 13/04/2023 22:00

There is no such thing as a person who is actually intersex, ie both sexes. All individuals with a dsd are either male or female.

How can you tell whether they are male or female?

SpicyMoth · 13/04/2023 22:01

Blaueblumen · 13/04/2023 21:52

People whose sex chromosomes are XXY are male

Men with small testicles (the most notable symptom of Klinefelters) are still men!

It's really not complicated, op.

Genuine questions; Does that apply to all cases of genuinely intersex indiscernibly one way or the other genitalia?

Is it not possible for a female baby to be born intersex? I'm sure I've heard of cases of like.. Sorry to be graphic, but enlarged clitoris, maybe some degree of testes somewhere and also vagina, womb & ovaries, go through a more female than male puberty ect.

I can't remember where I heard this though, and I'm now having a horrendous fear that that impression may well have come from male friends talking about porn 😰

titchy · 13/04/2023 22:04

There is no condition where an individual has both tested and ovaries. Anyone that tells you otherwise is a billy bullshitter.

Where a newborn's genitalia are unclear, generic testing is carried out to determine the sex, and if there is an underlying cause of the deformity.

Hoardasurass · 13/04/2023 22:06

SpicyMoth · 13/04/2023 22:01

Genuine questions; Does that apply to all cases of genuinely intersex indiscernibly one way or the other genitalia?

Is it not possible for a female baby to be born intersex? I'm sure I've heard of cases of like.. Sorry to be graphic, but enlarged clitoris, maybe some degree of testes somewhere and also vagina, womb & ovaries, go through a more female than male puberty ect.

I can't remember where I heard this though, and I'm now having a horrendous fear that that impression may well have come from male friends talking about porn 😰

That would be a no. You either have testicle or ovaries some males with certain dsds can develop a womb and vagina but have testicle in place of ovaries

nauticant · 13/04/2023 22:10

Once you move to the rarest of cases titchy, there can be very strange disorders:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7535655/

Even so, in the case referenced here, they discussion is about a male person.

PrinnyPaupersPurse · 13/04/2023 22:10

EmotionalSupportHyena · 13/04/2023 21:19

XXY men are taller than average men with smaller than average testicles. Nothing female at all about men with Klinefelter Syndrome.

What a weird (and insulting!) question to ask.

This. My husband works with a lovely man with this condition. He knows he's a man, but with a disorder. In their " male orientated " work place he's known as P or peardrop due to his body shape. I've actively encouraged my DH to use his actual name instead of a Nick name that reduces him to his difference but apparently he's 100% fine with it and doesn't respond to his actual name anyway. Just like Taft, Madder, shaggy and dong.

Not all intersex people feel different. To him, he's just a man with hips. Just like madder is a msn with a long term boyfriend. A man with kids, a wife, and a whole life. He's very loved by his work mates. But I reckon they WOULD be confused by his change of pronouns.

  • some names May or May not have been changed.....