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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kemi Badenoch could rewrite law to allow trans exclusion from single-sex spaces - The Guardian

73 replies

TheBiologyStupid · 05/04/2023 00:51

According to The Guardian:

Kemi Badenoch is considering changing the Equality Act to allow organisations to bar trans women from single-sex spaces and events, including hospital wards and sports.

The change by the equalities secretary would redefine sex in the 2010 act to specifically refer to legal protections for “biological sex” – the sex assigned at birth.

Badenoch asked the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) to advise on the change, it emerged on Tuesday. The equalities watchdog said the new definition would make it possible to exclude trans people from same-sex spaces even if they hold a gender recognition certificate (GRC).

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/apr/04/kemi-badenoch-could-rewrite-law-to-allow-trans-exclusion-from-single-sex-spaces

The Guardian fails to mention the extent to which exemptions already allow for single-sex provision, regardless of possession of a GRC. But it looks like a step in the right direction is in the offing, and the EHRC's position looks promising.

Sex Matters said:
This is a measured and thoughtful analysis from the EHRC. We are confident that our proposed amendment will deliver substantial improvements in clarity and fairness, but for now we are content with the conclusion that it merits further consideration.

Kemi Badenoch could rewrite law to allow trans exclusion from single-sex spaces

Redefinition of sex as ‘biological sex’ in Equality Act would enable single-sex restrictions against trans people

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/apr/04/kemi-badenoch-could-rewrite-law-to-allow-trans-exclusion-from-single-sex-spaces

OP posts:
Cantbelieveitsnotbetter · 05/04/2023 14:25

@OldCrone I haven't mentioned trans women, let alone said any of the things you've accused me of.

Ofcourseshecan · 05/04/2023 14:35

VitaminX · 05/04/2023 10:09

"Allow" is fine for private businesses and organisations but where it comes to state institutions and spaces like hospital wards really think they should be "required", not "allowed" to provide single-sex options (alongside other options where possible).

Yes, exactly this. The ‘allowed’ provision hasn’t worked, because managers etc don’t dare use it. They’d get aggression from transactivists, so it’s easier to throw women to the wolves. So single-sex has to be required by law.

Ofcourseshecan · 05/04/2023 14:39

OldCrone · 05/04/2023 13:33

What makes you think that transwomen would attempt to use women's toilets and changing rooms, knowing that they are not supposed to? You seem to have a very low opinion of transwomen if you think they are generally so antisocial that they would behave in such a way. This seems quite transphobic.

I’ll take it you’re being sarcastic, OldCrone! 😂

Ofcourseshecan · 05/04/2023 14:40

FourTeaFallOut · 05/04/2023 10:42

Give it ten years and so many transmen will be hobbled by osteoporosis that the defining feature will be a cane.

Sadly true.

cosmiccosmos · 05/04/2023 14:49

So interesting how the conversation has moved to talk about Transmen now.

Who's going to police it? To be honest I think transmen will and do police it themselves. I expect they use the men's and aren't noticed. It they use the women's then as had been said on this thread, 99.9% of the time women can tell. Additionally transmen are no threat to women where unfortunately transwomen offending folllows male pattern offending.

It's very clear to me. Men commit virtually all assault, sexual assault etc - women are at risk from men not other women. It's not always obvious who these men are but it's always men. Some men will do anything to get to women including pretending to be a woman. Unfortunately the transwomen who just want to go about their daily lives are lumped into this category although I don't hear many of them showing any understanding of women's rights, most of the time it's about them and their needs.

MaireadMcSweeney · 05/04/2023 14:56

Cantbelieveitsnotbetter · 05/04/2023 14:23

You're missing the point. Whether or not you believe you can tell the difference, how are you going to prove that he is not a trans man. Who is going to police that?

In prison - will be easy, their ID will be seen.
in a refuge - again, any suspicion of being male and their ID will be asked for. Birth certificate (original) not passport as we know those can be faked.
in a changing room - they can be challenged by the management, if they are really there arguing they are female despite appearing and sounding and BEING male then security can manage that.
I realise you think you're providing a gotcha here but it's really not. It's very clear who is male. If a trans man is challenged they need only explain they are female and have medically transitioned and provide ID to that effect.
frankly there needs to be a sea change in societal attitudes whereby it ceases to be seen as some social justice campaign to let males in female spaces and reverts to being something creepy, predatory and socially unacceptable. This will take time but this is a step in the right direction 🤷🏼‍♀️

OldCrone · 05/04/2023 14:59

Cantbelieveitsnotbetter · 05/04/2023 14:25

@OldCrone I haven't mentioned trans women, let alone said any of the things you've accused me of.

I must have misunderstood. What was the birth certificate comment all about then?

Mairead said: Men who claim to be female can be challenged. They can be asked to prove they are female with their birth certificate if necessary.

You replied: You're going to have people standing at the entrance to toilets and changing rooms asking for people's birth certificates?

Mairead was obviously talking about men who claim to be women, so I assumed you were too.

MaireadMcSweeney · 05/04/2023 15:03

OldCrone · 05/04/2023 14:59

I must have misunderstood. What was the birth certificate comment all about then?

Mairead said: Men who claim to be female can be challenged. They can be asked to prove they are female with their birth certificate if necessary.

You replied: You're going to have people standing at the entrance to toilets and changing rooms asking for people's birth certificates?

Mairead was obviously talking about men who claim to be women, so I assumed you were too.

For some reason that poster is asking about hypothetical men who will pretend to be transmen to get access to women's spaces. Not really sure who these men are, since as far as I know the only males who use women's toilets are transwomen. The idea that men will START pretending to be transmen to get access to refuges or whatever is so outlandish that it doesn't really need responding to.

RedToothBrush · 05/04/2023 15:11

What I find particularly interesting on this story is to see how they Mail have reported on this compared to the Guardian.

The Guardian have come from the angle of saying its Badenoch in having driven this single handedly, and saying SHE will change the law whereas the Mail emphasises the role of the EHRC much more, and says that SUNAK (not Badenoch) will consider changing the law now on this basis in a much more collaborative way from government. However the Mail seems to edit out the role of Sex Matters on this.

The Mail also has a quote from the Labour Party which is seemingly positive (the LPs position is not commented on in the Guardian article):

Rishi Sunak is now expected to take action on the advice of the watchdog, with the Prime Minister having pledged to review the Act during last summer's Tory leadership race.

He previously described the 2010 legislation as 'a Trojan horse that has allowed every kind of woke nonsense to permeate public life'.

Labour today welcomed a review of the Equality Act, with a party spokesperson saying: 'Clarification is a good thing. We will look closely at what's brought forward.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11941881/EHRC-chair-backs-law-change-amid-widespread-confusion-trans-issues.html

Crucially in the Mail article we have this quote:

She added there was a 'current lack of a definition' over the term 'sex' in the Equality Act, which means the EHRC has 'taken the position that a trans woman with a GRC (Gender Recognition Certificate), for example, is in principle entitled to access women’s spaces such as a hospital ward, a woman’s changing room, and so on'.

Baroness Falkner acknowledged 'this is contested', writing: 'Some people think this cannot be the meaning of "woman" in the Equality Act. Having considered this in detail, we agree.

And

Earlier this week, in a 19-page letter to Ms Badenoch, Baroness Falkner identified eight areas where updating the Equality Act could bring benefits.

This includes in the employment of staff in safe spaces such as women's or girls' hostels, the use of women's-only wards in hospitals, and the exclusion of trans women from women's sports.

This seems to suggest much more explicitly that the loophole where someone has a GRC has to be treated as if their gender identity was their biological sex would be closed for certain situations where the 'sex' exemption is already written into the Equality Act but is being bulldozed by 'Stonewall Law' getting ahead of the actual law.

I do like that the Guardian article highlights the following though:

The EHRC said there was also a clear need to evolve the language used in the 2010 act, which “refers to trans people as ‘transsexuals’, and uses the terms ‘sex’ and ‘gender’ at times interchangeably, with the requirement on employers to report ‘gender pay gaps’ in fact a duty to report on pay differences according to the protected characteristic of sex”.

The clear need to separate and not conflate the words sex and gender is a really important one, which would do much to help record data accurately / separately and in itself protects women (and ironically trans people) to a large extent.

The Guardian fails to mention (the now discredited) Mermaids but does record a reaction from Stonewall, but the Mail has a quote from Mermaids.

BOTH articles are well worth reading as they clearly give different information - and I would argue neither is particularly biased in the way we've grown used to seeing from the Mail/Guardian. Both are fairly good on the journalistic content being prominant rather than the editorial line being heavily pushed.

EHRC chair backs law change amid 'confusion' over trans issues

Baroness Kishwer Falkner, the chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, pointed to 'widespread confusion' on trans issues for businesses, hospitals, schools, shops and offices.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11941881/EHRC-chair-backs-law-change-amid-widespread-confusion-trans-issues.html

RedToothBrush · 05/04/2023 15:16

OldCrone · 05/04/2023 14:59

I must have misunderstood. What was the birth certificate comment all about then?

Mairead said: Men who claim to be female can be challenged. They can be asked to prove they are female with their birth certificate if necessary.

You replied: You're going to have people standing at the entrance to toilets and changing rooms asking for people's birth certificates?

Mairead was obviously talking about men who claim to be women, so I assumed you were too.

Mairead fails to understand that the problem is more that women and organisations are currently fearful of challenging obvious males because of the risk of being sued / criminalised / harassed in some way for doing it.

If the response from an individual is to act aggressively to questions its much more clear in who is acting in a way that unacceptable.

It means that the 'proportionality' element of the EA can actually be used, rather than rode roughshot over the EXISTING legal rights that Stonewall has UNLAWFULLY tried to suggest women don't have and shouldn't have.

MaireadMcSweeney · 05/04/2023 15:19

RedToothBrush · 05/04/2023 15:16

Mairead fails to understand that the problem is more that women and organisations are currently fearful of challenging obvious males because of the risk of being sued / criminalised / harassed in some way for doing it.

If the response from an individual is to act aggressively to questions its much more clear in who is acting in a way that unacceptable.

It means that the 'proportionality' element of the EA can actually be used, rather than rode roughshot over the EXISTING legal rights that Stonewall has UNLAWFULLY tried to suggest women don't have and shouldn't have.

Mairead doesn't fail to understand that at all! What makes you say that?

RealityFan · 05/04/2023 15:21

Ofcourseshecan · 05/04/2023 14:40

Sadly true.

Looking forwards the the BBC doc charting the medical scandal. I wonder if that doc will even suggest implicating their role in the whole sorry debacle?

Bienemajas · 05/04/2023 15:25

Women can tell the difference between a man and a woman, it isn't just about what people are wearing.

Not just women - most people can tell the difference between a biological man or woman.

WittynotPretty · 05/04/2023 15:33

Does this mean that the WI Board of Trustees will have to row back on its ‘TW are women/ #bekind stance notwithstanding that it’s already denied members a vote on keeping the WI a safe space for wonen?

MaireadMcSweeney · 05/04/2023 15:41

WittynotPretty · 05/04/2023 15:33

Does this mean that the WI Board of Trustees will have to row back on its ‘TW are women/ #bekind stance notwithstanding that it’s already denied members a vote on keeping the WI a safe space for wonen?

Nobody will have to do anything. Organisations are free to remain mixed sex even if the profess to be for women. This will just ensure that those orgs who WANT to provide single sex spaces CAN without fear of legal action.

WittynotPretty · 05/04/2023 15:47

Thanks for the clarification @MaireadMcSweeney

Laladybird · 05/04/2023 16:30

"Redefine sex as 'biological sex' "

<multiple laughing emojis>

BTW great news to hear positive response from Labour. Let's hope this means they are seeing sense.

Floisme · 05/04/2023 16:40

I also really hope that Labour are beginning to see sense but, from what I've seen, all they've said so far is that they welcome a review and that they will look closely at whatever is said. I think they need their feet holding to the fire a bit longer yet. .

twelly · 05/04/2023 16:59

The very fact that this being suggested and action is being taken is good news - it will I hope awaken many to what is happening in society. Unless you have been impacted or have taken an interest in the issue you do not realise what is and has happened - gradually this agenda has been adopted, it was quite quick but quiet which is the worry. I feel the sooner the situation is addressed the sooner we can stop the impact on young people. In my view biology is the overriding factor and that needs to be at the centre. I feel quite sad as a labour supporter that I am contemplating not voting labour - whether I would abstain or vote tory is something I would think about if labour continue with the current policy.

JanesLittleGirl · 05/04/2023 17:14

I'm sure that everything will become clear when we see the "light not heat" debate in the HoC.

Bienemajas · 05/04/2023 17:27

In my view biology is the overriding factor and that needs to be at the centre.

Exactly. Male biology is obviously different than female biology. Why is this not obvious to everyone?

RedToothBrush · 05/04/2023 17:28

JanesLittleGirl · 05/04/2023 17:14

I'm sure that everything will become clear when we see the "light not heat" debate in the HoC.

Labour politicians will either not turn up, be full on TWAW or will actually speak sense and not be reported in the guardian because that will be embarrassing...

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