Kemi Badenoch could rewrite law to allow trans exclusion from single-sex spaces - The Guardian

[TheBiologyStupid]

According to The Guardian:

Kemi Badenoch is considering changing the Equality Act to allow organisations to bar trans women from single-sex spaces and events, including hospital wards and sports.

The change by the equalities secretary would redefine sex in the 2010 act to specifically refer to legal protections for “biological sex” – the sex assigned at birth.

Badenoch asked the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) to advise on the change, it emerged on Tuesday. The equalities watchdog said the new definition would make it possible to exclude trans people from same-sex spaces even if they hold a gender recognition certificate (GRC).

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/apr/04/kemi-badenoch-could-rewrite-law-to-allow-trans-exclusion-from-single-sex-spaces

The Guardian fails to mention the extent to which exemptions already allow for single-sex provision, regardless of possession of a GRC. But it looks like a step in the right direction is in the offing, and the EHRC's position looks promising.

Sex Matters said:
This is a measured and thoughtful analysis from the EHRC. We are confident that our proposed amendment will deliver substantial improvements in clarity and fairness, but for now we are content with the conclusion that it merits further consideration.

That's not the point I'm making or responding to.
PP seems to think that this change would force trans men into using female spaces, thereby utilising the 'gotcha' that some trans men pass as male. The point I'm making is that this wouldn't happen. This change would enable female only spaces to exclude males. It wouldn't suddenly mean passable transmen would have to stop using male spaces. Of course it could also enable male spaces to exclude females but in reality very few places or people will bother to do that.

@MaireadMcSweeney
I don't think it will be as neat and tidy as you would like. The law doesn't just work the way you want it to.
Also if you were worried about men with harmful intentions using self id to access women's spaces, then it will be even easier. They won't even have to 'put on a dress'. They can just say they are a trans man.

For those saying you can always tell - I think you need to look into this a bit more.

90% of men have no way of passing as a trans man, for the same reason they have no way of passing as a woman.

Obviously East Asian men may have better odds, with finer bone structure and sparser facial hair.

Systems don't need to be perfect to be worth sticking with. Excluding the majority of people who don't belong is better than making no effort to do so at all.

On Times Radio this morning the Labour MP, Steve Reed said he supported this. I was pleasantly surprised on his clarity on the need for sex to be defined as biological in The Equality Act.

Men who claim to be female can be challenged. They can be asked to prove they are female with their birth certificate if necessary. Strengthening the EA will make it lawful to do this.
none of the drama over single sex provisions is neat and tidy, because trans rights activists have muddied the water through shady campaigning and bullying. This is a step towards cleaning it up again.

Didn't take long. Already a caller on LBC saying 'what about transmen'.

Yes, you all know that trans men generally 'pass' much more easily. Also men don't have to worry about their safety like women do. Women don't become transmen to get into men's spaces for nefarious reasons .

I'm expecting to hear more about 'what about transmen' now the law is actually going to be applied as it was always meant to.

The Lady Haldane ruling in Scotland was that "sex" in the Equality Act covers those with gender recognition certificates. In other words, it's your legal sex that counts, not your biological sex. What Kemi Badenoch and the EHRC are doing, as I understand it, is to clarify that when the Equality Act says sex, it means biological sex.

@MaireadMcSweeney
You're going to have people standing at the entrance to toilets and changing rooms asking for people's birth certificates?
This question may be boring for people but I haven't seen a fully thought through response yet.

@cosmiccosmos
But men could pose as trans men to gain access to women's spaces.

"Allow" is fine for private businesses and organisations but where it comes to state institutions and spaces like hospital wards really think they should be "required", not "allowed" to provide single-sex options (alongside other options where possible).

Men who are posing as women who look like men? What does that look like then? I'll tell you, like an actual man who we can all spot a mile away.

Lol
What a pointless, bad faith, point-missing question.

Good.
I genuinely will vote depending on this issue alone.

So what's your solution then?

@MaireadMcSweeney

So you can't answer my simple question and instead resort to insults.
I am not asking in bad faith. I genuinely want to know how this is all going to work.

It’s so sad that any attempt for women to clarify and shore up their rights is seen as an automatic attack on trans people. This isn’t even trans exclusionary as trans men would be permitted into female only spaces if they wished.

oh i don't know, how could it possibly work? How would we know? It's just too hard etc etc

It will work in the majority of places. Where males sneak into female single sex spaces, once that is discovered we will have recourse to law to stop it happening again. That person will be identified and prohibited in future, it might be a slow process but it will work in the majority of cases. Also the police and public bodies will know where they stand in enforcing single sex spaces. The law is muddled at the moment and this will clarify it.

Give it ten years and so many transmen will be hobbled by osteoporosis that the defining feature will be a cane.

Back in the olden days men didn't used to try to sneak into women's spaces under false pretences unless they were abusers. I'm not sure what motivation your hypothetical man pretending to be a woman pretending to be a man would have for trying this but they would be spotted sooner or later (blatantly sooner, no man actually looks like a woman pretending to be a man in real life)
the point of this clarification is that people can CHALLENGE such sneaky, abusive, creepy men trying to sneak into women's spaces and boot them the fuck out if they are caught.

Me too.

How it will work is that people will be expected, by law, to use facilities for their sex, and if they don't they can expect to be frowned upon or challenged. This is the unwritten social contract that has always existed.

What makes you think that transwomen would attempt to use women's toilets and changing rooms, knowing that they are not supposed to? You seem to have a very low opinion of transwomen if you think they are generally so antisocial that they would behave in such a way. This seems quite transphobic.

Women can tell the difference between a man and a woman, it isn't just about what people are wearing. A man who 'pretends' to be a transman will be very easy to spot.

You're missing the point. Whether or not you believe you can tell the difference, how are you going to prove that he is not a trans man. Who is going to police that?