Can MNHQ set up a new discussion category called Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)

[PlanetLuna]

MN, will you please create a talk group/category of Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)?

MN appears to currently have only 2 feminism categories:
Feminism: chat
Feminism: sex & gender discussions

But the Feminism: sex & gender category on MN is predominantly GC, with its emphasis on trans exclusion ideology. Feminists who do not subscribe to those beliefs are often unwelcome and treated with derision and hostility in discussions. Certainly not always as some GC posters do enjoy open, intellectual discussions but often enough that engagement can be toxic & intimidating all around.

It is almost impossible for non-GC feminists to find inclusive/non-GC feminist discussions, and we have to wade through unpleasant (for us) GC threads while attempting to do so.

GC feminism dominates on UK parenting sites in particular. However, inclusive/non-GC feminism is extremely popular around the world (especially in places like the US, NZ, and AU) and in the UK among younger feminists and those who do not see trans rights as a threat to women & girls’ safety. Many UK feminists are non-GC but may feel silenced on MN.

The addition of another category will help open up and improve MN discussions while reducing the toxicity and hostility that many feminists on both sides experience in discussions.

So I propose the following feminism discussion categories:
Feminism: chat (general)
Feminism: sex & gender discussions (GC)
Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)

@MNHQ

I disagree about your definition of gender critical feminism. To me it is critical of the concept of gender, i.e., the norms, roles and stereotypes which cultures assign to people of the two sexes

yes, this is what it means….others have posted similar definitions which I would also agree with

but unfortunately some people have changed the meaning to ‘hates trans people and doesn’t want them to exist’

when you’ve got people giving words and a phrases a bad faith interpretation which happens all the time then it tends to stick

I also think that the vast majority of people who say they aren’t gender critical are thinking of the ‘hates trans’ definition, because I think most people are ‘critical’ (whether used as critical of or thinking critically) of some aspects of gender stereotypes and its effects

The advantage - to certain sectors of the population- of gathering crime data by gender identity only is twofold: it pushes the “women are just as violent as men so don’t need any special protections” narrative, and it obscures the fact that genuine transphobic hate crime (as opposed to being correctly sexed or not being overtly validated in some way) is, thankfully, very rare in the UK.

Take the bathroom issue, for example. We have been told ad infinitum that the reason TW need to use women’s public toilets is NOT for validation as a woman, but because they’re unsafe in the men’s. Yet there are hardly any reports (indeed, none that I can remember but I stand to be corrected if memory fails me, which it very often does!) of TW being assaulted or intimidated in UK men’s toilets. Certainly nowhere near as many documented instances as there are of men committing assault / sexual offences in women’s bathroom. And so given how quickly anything of this nature goes viral these days, it’s fair to assume there is no epidemic of transphobic male toilet-situated crime or we’d be seeing evidence of it regularly. So why are so many women still compliantly going along with the “poor unsafe TW, of course they should use our spaces” propaganda?

(And why is the same invitation not being extended to disabled men, effeminate men, men with LDs, tween boys…all who would be at least as vulnerable in a male bathroom as a stereotypically femininely-dressed man?)

It's the usual thing - trying to hitch trans demands onto gay rights. and trying to make TW a subset of women, like lesbians.

Both wrecked on the rocks of biological reality. Gay rights are based on same sex attraction and lesbians are of the sex class of women. TW are not women.

As a heterosexual woman I never feel offended when adult women (often teachers) are prosecuted for sexual activity with teenage boys. The boys cannot meaningfully consent so it’s obviously sexual abuse and I want ALL sexual abusers to be prosecuted.

In fact, when another case like this hits the news my first thought is always ‘what in the safeguarding system could be changed/tweaked to prevent it happening again in future?’

I definitely do NOT think ‘hush it up and pretend it never happens because talking about it makes women look bad’.

I think it is supposed to be some
kind of threat. That lesbians don’t want to have research all about them is a bit of a falsehood in light of the Lesbian Project. I suspect that if there was a need to clarify the UK figures for lesbians in prison, the women involved in the Lesbian Project would be very much involved.

I find the whole concept of wanting to distract from the truth confusing. I want to know the truth. Because if I were a trans person, I would absolutely want to know the WHY. Is it because there are discriminatory factors at play? If so, where and then how to address this.

If a group of female people started to show up in prison statistics because there was an issue where those female people were indeed committing crimes of a particular nature, I would want to know why. Not try to hide it or distract from it.

Because if female people developed a particular criminality that harmed other people, that is fucking concerning and let’s work to stop it. if it is not a true indication of the crime patterns of that group of female people, that needs to discovered, publicised and actions taken to address the real issue.

Who benefits from trying to deny issues or from not addressing the issues at the root or at the very least correct very publicly misinterpretation of data?

Let me be the first to congratulate don on his achievement.

I find the whole concept of wanting to distract from the truth confusing. I want to know the truth. Because if I were a trans person, I would absolutely want to know the WHY. Is it because there are discriminatory factors at play? If so, where and then how to address this.

yep, it is the double-standard that both baffles and bugs me. We don't register sex because TWAW but we KNOW FOR sure that billions of TW are being attacked and killed and the mean women won't let us hide with them.

I saw a thing on twitter the other day when someone had asked where the trans genocide is because that would be a serious issue that needs to be stopped. Someone posted worldwide data of deaths of TW. We know in the UK it is not a thing that happens much at all (again: one death is one death too many). In the US it turns out that there were 4 in the time frame (last few years I think). 3 were sex workers (how many female sex workers are killed in that time? stats weren't asked for nor forthcoming) and one was a domestic violence/murder within a trans couple. Brasil has a high incidence of TW being murdered, they are pretty much all in the sex trade.

So the answer to the "where is the genocide" was: you're not counting all the teen suicides you cause by not affirming gender. That was it. But surely we would know if there was a spate of teenage suicides? I'd want to know.

Some of us have spent our entire lives on the receiving end of verbal abuse and physical violence because we don't live up to sex stereotypes, being told that we're "not real girls" / "not really boys" because of our clothing choices or interests. And we're opposed to the trans movement because it appears to be doing exactly the same thing as the bullies.

Yes. I love reading studies and polls and data. Because I want to know!

I cannot imagine someone saying ‘well, imagine if your group was under the microscope as much as y group! How offensive!’

Errr. No! Bring it on, I say! The only way to deal with issues is to know as much about them as possible.

So, yes! If female people are committing sex crime at an increased rate, I fucking well want to know why! What is driving it ! Don’t hide it, don’t lie about it. Measure it, analyse it, analyse the collection of the data and discuss why it is happening and how to address it.

This is worse than all the abbreviations and acronyms on Line Of Duty.

haha - i remember watching a film with (non military) friends and them being baffled by things like "they've gone MIA in the DMZ"

I think there's a list of MN acronyms somewhere?

🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

IDK, AIBU to NGAF? DP is a CF and my DCs told me to FOTTFSOFATFOSM.

ODFOD

Sorry, I hadn't RTFT.

if we defined women the way some people on this forum do, what next? Let's say it's purely about sex, so an adult human female. We'd be having the same conversations about awful men, but with trans people removed from the equation.

There is only one definition of woman, anything else is appropriation by men. The oppressor infiltrating the oppressed sex class then claiming we are the ones oppressing them.

The men actually causing harm would still be walking around, but years have passed where people have wasted their time talking about this. So I'm saying that I'd rather focus on just stopping awful men, without randomly putting the focus on the 0.1% of people who are trans

Males demanding access to female only spaces, services and sports on the basis of their entirely subjective feelings are causing harm to women and girls, and as has been proven multiple times, some of these ARE the awful men.

Damn, pressed too soon. First and 3rd paragraph aren't mine. Was quoting.

No time to RTFT, OP.
Would a section named Feminism for Handmaidens help?

What would you discuss?

FOTTFSOFATFOSM is a new one for me.

Luna

It seems to me that you would like to propound your thoughts and opinions and to have sympathetic responses. MN is a talkboard, where people post their thoughts, often with links to supporting data and analysis; other people will write in response.

They may argue and link to other data, perhaps to articles which criticise the methodology of the original data, or to similar information, which also supports the original thesis.

That's how these sorts of places work, with thrust and counter-thrust of opinion and analysis. If you write something here, even if it's a generally popular subject / viewpoint, somebody will disagree with it.

You can't really prevent people from commenting, because it's counter to the way talk-boards work.

So, if you want to criticise and exclude others who don't believe that TWAW, that men shouldn't be in prison with women, take awards and board places from women, be in a state of undress in front of women and girls, or to displace and injure them in sports, then I fear that you've made your appeal in the wrong place.

I feel like a lack of dysphoria also explains why even though you may have a masculine personality according to stereotypes, you're not trans

How transphobic of you. The men don't need to have dysphoria now to claim to be women.

You see, getting rid of the mental health diagnosis, the very thing that was in place to stop the AGP'S and other fetishists and distinguish them from the genuinely dysphoric transexuals, (who were mostly gay men who knew they could not actually BE women) was all part of the plan.

The wholesale removal of female rights and boundaries only benefits men.
Men telling us women are no longer a separate sex class, that our very words are now theirs, is the definition of sex based oppression.

@BenCoopersSupportWren

re: sexual assaults in male toilets ( I couldn’t find any information about non sexual assaults,,perhaps it is not reported much by the participants), I could find six in the past seven years. ( of course, the closure during lockdown might account for some decline due to unavailability). With one exception, these were all assaults by an older man on a younger, usually a teenager below the age of consent.

I suppose anyone dressed as a woman would be safe from this? As the perpetrators were interested in young boys.

I have found one incident of attempted sexual assault in a male toilet on another adult male, unsuccessful as the ‘ victim’ fought back with considerable vigour, and the police were able to arrest the rapist in situ. (incidentally re Scotland , the attacker was sentenced to 14 months in prison for attempted rape on another adult).

Reported attacks on TW in male spaces of any sort……zero.

So male toilets don’t seem to be that unsafe for men.

So, if you want to criticise and exclude others who don't believe that TWAW, that men shouldn't be in prison with women, take awards and board places from women, be in a state of undress in front of women and girls, or to displace and injure them in sports, then I fear that you've made your appeal in the wrong place

That's the thing though isn't it, none of these gender believers ever actually explain to us WHY they think some men should be in women's facilities and prisons.
All they have is 'feelings' or 'because the man says so'

Gender identity ideology cannot stand up to even the most basic scrutiny, because it's batshit and ever changing.

Like 'non binary'. Imagine making up a nonsense identity, demanding every else go along with it, then claiming you are 'oppressed' because people can tell what sex you are.
Androgyny isn't new or special.

All they have is attempting to silence us and shouting insults like,
Bigot
Transphobe
Far right religious extremist
Nazi (literally Hitler!!!!!!!)
Fascist
White colonialists pushing the sex binary
Etc
Etc

Absolutely 100% right. Please provide the definition of women that is the reference for supposed feminism, and how men (like me) can support it (as I seek probably to the annoyance of some, but I am tolerated! to do here). Let me add that the reason I am here, and want to post, is that I am concerned (as it strikes me MN is) with the issues of having children, caring for them and creating a world of intimate relations in which they will thrive; and more generally about family relationships - all of which are relevant to feminism if the feminism envisages a relationship to those central issues. For me the sine qua non is the appalling abuse of children by administration to them of powerful drugs (puberty-blockers and hormones) and encouragement to proceed to surgical transition; followed by the attempt to destroy fact-based education by substituting gender identity ideology for biology, and attacking the specific socio-political understanding of biological sex which is called feminism!

Gesundheit.