Starmer: Almost no-one is talking about trans issues

[SidewaysOtter]

To quote from the rolling news section of this morning's Times:

"Almost no Britons are “talking about trans issues,” Sir Keir Starmer has said as he questioned why such issues are a focus of political debate.

The Labour leader sought to win over gender critical campaigners and MPs at the weekend, telling The Sunday Times there would be “no rolling back” of women’s rights if the party formed a government.

Speaking to LBC this morning he repeated his position that “for the vast majority — let’s say 99.9 per cent — biology matters” in defining a woman. He said that Labour was trying to agree a “common sense, respectable and tolerant position”, but that it was “not prepared to ignore” the small number of people who identify as a different gender to the one they were born in.

He insisted it was a marginal issue for many voters, however. “As we go around the country campaigning, I talk to thousands and thousands and thousands of people. They want to talk to me about the cost of living crisis, about the fact they can’t pay their bills, they want to know what they’re going to do about their council tax,” he said.

“Almost nobody is talking about trans issues. I do sometimes just wonder why on earth we spend so much of our time discussing something which isn’t a feature of the dinner table or the kitchen table or the café table or the bar.”

Funny, because I think there's quite a lot of people talking about "trans issues". Whether it's the treatment of Posie Parker and the 72-year-old woman who were violently assaulted last weekend, male-bodied people in women's sports/changing rooms/hospital wards/prisons, the medicalisation/mutilation of young adults, or the vilification of those who speak The Terrible Heresy that you cannot change your biological sex. And yes, we're talking about it at the dinner table, the café bar or wherever.

"No rolling back of women's rights" doesn't mean shit if you count men as women, Mr Starmer. And you can wang on about "respect and tolerance" all you like but we know what you really mean by that is wanting us to be quiet and stop being awkward. That isn't going to happen.

Sorry, punctuation error! Everything after 'defence' was supposed to have an asterisk after it. I'll try again:

"Which of the following do you think are the most important issues facing the country at this time?"

Potential answers: Brexit, Health, Education, Economy, Environment, Housing, Immigration, Crime, Defence

Further potential answers that were omitted from results due to getting less than 10% of the vote: Tax, Pensions, Family life & childcare, Transport, Welfare benefits, None of These, Don't know

Note that by this definition no one thinks tax or benefits are important either...

All my friends are talking about it. And I never instigate the conversations either.

A lot of wishful thinking on here. This issue does not impact most people.

A bit like Sturgeon’s wishful thinking. That went well.

Interesting - because one of my DC (late 20's) has said all their friends agree it's an issue - they've moved in the last few years from "be kind" to "bloody hell!". I've even met two of my other DCs friends mothers at events like WPUK. We used to chat at school sports matches and recognised each other.

My experience is that once you begin to talk about it, go to events locally, the floodgates open and you suddenly find yourself not at all alone. Many women who are still working are having to be incredibly careful about being public, so they are only out to trusted friends. Doxing GC women to their employers, along with a complaint, is a top TRA sport. All of those woman still have a vote.

Well that maybe explains the absolute silence from Labour on the Tavistock scandal. They don't even care about the nation's vulnerable kids let alone care about the sex-based rights of women who have the vote.

I see many here have Head in the Sand Syndrome.

"Wishful"

What a dark view you have of those who disagree.

It's very strange that he says it's not a topic in bars or round the kitchen table. He must hang out in very different circles from me. My boss does not shut up about trans issues. I've had extensive discussions about the issue at family meals. I've spoken about it in depth with almost every single one of my friends (not at my instigation), and have lost friendships due to people disagreeing with my views. My sister called me out of the blue to rant about that man being sent to a woman's prison. The best barometer? I've had MULTIPLE taxi drivers rant at me about 'blokes in women's sports'. Again, I'll reiterate that the vast majority of the time I don't raise this issue with other people. Sure, maybe the issue isn't that important to many people but certainly in my experience people are talking about it.

Colleagues have mentioned it, a couple of friends who are the most head in the sand people I know have raised it, family members have raised it. Lots of people are raising this, more now than ever before

What is notable is the caution with which people raise it and given the impact on and violence directed at women who have, their caution is understandable.

Starmer is a misogynistic disappointment of a Labour leader

This nails it.🔨

The very fact that he is having to talk about this issue is testament to the fact that the LP have finally woken up to the fact that a great deal of people do care about it.

Whilst I think it's fair to say that this forum attracts posters that care about it more deeply than most (to the point for some of being a single issue to vote on), dismissing the topic entirely doesn't strike me as a good strategy from Kier.

If you look at the number of articles you see across the press on this, it's clearly something people want/are reading about.

I know people are snooty about the Mail but it's the biggest UK news website and their driver is ultimately clicks. Those articles wouldn't be so frequent (or be allowed online real estate at all) if they weren't driving revenue through a substantial number of people clicking on that copy.

In addition to win an election is a first past the post system it's not about a majority sentiment. It's about attracting key voters in marginal seats.

Even if most people don't think this is a priority he's still got a major problem if he's losing GC votes in target constituencies where the difference between winning and losing can be a few hundred votes.

Irrespective of the above and like other posters, my own experience is that people are talking about this and they are watching Labour closely.

He's delusional if he thinks he can minimise this issue because the Tories have definitely read the room here and will use every opportunity they can to undermine Labour's credibility by asking some very simple questions that simply leave the respondent looking foolish and unfit for office - and that's something that resonates even with people for whom this topic is not a priority.

How many people remember that car crash of an interview between Andrew O'Neil and Corbyn? It had even firm former Labour supporters with their head in their hands thinking wtf? Can I possibly see this guy as PM?

Now imagine similar interviews not just with Kier but all the Labour leadership tripping over themselves time and time again.

Being asked to justify previous quotes (and they are many corkers to choose from) that range from the insulting to the absurd.

Kier's problem is that this topic punches above its weight because it has the potential to undermine credibility, gravitas and trust well beyond the demographic for whom it is a key voting point.

I see some commentators are attributing self-ID at least in part to the collapse of the Finnish government and change to a conservative one in today's election.

Maybe he’s going to have them carved into stone like Milliband’s EdStone.

“Only talk about things that are on the stone. WE ONLY TALK ABOUT THINGS THAT ARE ON THE STONE!!”

This.

Even the taxi driver brought up woke stuff to me last time, he started going on about everything on TV not representing real life.

Then then went on about all the liars there are saying men are women. He couldn't get enough of what I had to say and was going to Google Yogyakarta Principles and Dentons, he asked how to spell them, as he said he and other taxi drivers were wondering where it all came from.

So I did a quick exercise.

Lets look at the top 5 seats Labour need to win ranked by percentage majority:

Rank Constituency Majority Percent Majority

1.      Bury North	       	   105	        0.22%
   

2.      Kensington	           150	        0.34%
   

3.      Bury South	       	   402	        0.80%
   

4.      Bolton North East  378	        0.87% 
   

5.      High Peak	           590	        1.09%
   

Then lets look at the number of people in each constituency who signed the petition to update the EA and think about the fact people who have done so, really care about this issue.

Rank Constituency Majority EA signatures

1.      Bury North	       	   105	        120
   

2.      Kensington	           150	        241
   

3.      Bury South	       	   402	        155
   

4.      Bolton North East  378	        76 
   

5.      High Peak	           590	        190
   

These are votes he can't afford to be losing and where the margins are this tight alienating even a small number of voters is going to hurt.

I appreciate this isn't super scientific, but it does give some insight into the potential this has to damage Labour's chances and remember these are the seats they theoretically should find easiest to turn red.

You can manipulate what people say are "top issues" by what choices you offer them.

How are you going to have a conversation about crime without women wanting to discuss women's safety? How are you going to have a conversation about education without people complaining about their kids being sexualised and/ot transitioned at school? If you want to talk about health the money spent on trans medication and surgery is going to be mentioned. Want to talk about council tax - people are fed up of paying for diversity champions, stonewall and the like. It's not massively talked about where I live but when it is it is very much in the "dont bring that bollocks here" vein.

It may not be the first thing people mention because they are well aware that Labour wont listen. But it feeds into doubt about whether Labour are still living in a fantasy land and whether Starmer is too weak to lead. In hard times people want strong leaders.

Some may be too scared to talk about it in certain situations, for fear of repercussions, but they are concerned, nonetheless,
For me, the topic comes up almost daily, with friends, family, or neighbours,
For others, they may wish it to be not spoken of, or to be of any concern to anyone,
But that is simply having a very blinkered/naive/fingers-in-ears-going-la-la-la attitude.

Wow, seriously?

let’s say 99.9 per cent — biology matters” in defining a woman. He said that Labour was trying to agree a “common sense, respectable and tolerant position”, but that it was “not prepared to ignore” the small number of people who identify as a different gender to the one they were born in.

Translation: we are not prepared to ignore the deeply sexist nature of this debate, because we are institutionally sexist. It's funny how Starmer says 99.9% of the time women don't have a penis, fails to ignore the other side of this where there is no conversation about what is a man and backs the 0.1% who want to impose gender stereotyped ideas of what a woman is on actual women.

This isn't respectable nor tolerant. It's railroading women by gaslighting them and then trying to emotionally blackmail them by suggesting they aren't reasonable.

He then says no one's talking about it, when it's constantly in the media, featured as an ongoing scandal at the Tavi on newsnight which has triggered safeguarding concerns, never mind the inappropriate teaching of themes within schools and incidents in school toilets which have been discussed in parliament. Then there's the internal issues within his own party over it.

He's the man telling Winston about how many fingers he should be saying.

Tbf if someone is more TRA in views I might not discuss with them. So some posters could be no one discusses this but people don’t discuss it with them.

Came up recently with my super woke friend. We had a discussion and she agreed that TERFy was a slur. I left it at that.

It’s come up a few times in chats with various friends recently. People are scared to voice their opinions in groups in our area but will discuss in more intimate circles pretty often / weekly or fortnightly. Not as much as the cost of living crisis but that’s a rather safer topic isn’t it!?

I’m disappointed with Starmer. A weak response.

I mean, I'd love my PM to be a clubber, with all the right moves, but not if she was gonna be pro Self ID...and I'm afraid that's exactly what would have been on had she won.

Just at the time Finnish health services said in relation to transing teens HANNNNNG ONNNNN!

Absolutely.

The subject is taboo. You have to be careful who you raise it with.

I definitely won't talk about it with certain people because I don't know how they will react.

Women have actively been driven out of political parties for it, so of course he won't hear it from his own circles because they already know his position in his own echo chamber.

Women have been made to feel fearful of saying it in the wrong company as they've seen others lose their jobs or be otherwise disciplined for doing so.

It's something talked about in hushed private circles with trusted friends.

Women are effectively often 'in the closet' over it.

I wouldn’t talk about ‘trans’ issues. To me, it’s purely a women’s rights issue.

What does trans even mean anyway? Surgery? Appearance? Caricature? Existentialism? Because it certainly isn’t biology. So the word trans means nothing to me - they’re still just men and women.