My husband

[Wildeheart]

DH thinks that a political party’s approach to trans rights is a small aspect of their manifesto and, while important, we should give more weight to their other policies on, for example, climate change when deciding who to vote for. This is in context of me saying that I would consider voting for the Tories for the first time ever instead of Labour if the Lib Dems were not the popular party in my area. How can I explain to him that trans rights potentially have a huge impact on women’s rights even though trans people make up a small percentage of the population (which is his argument)?

This issue says a lot about politicians. If they think transwomen are women they are either stupid because they really believe it or hypocrites and cowards because they don't believe it but pretend they do. If they can be stupid or lie about such a fundamental thing, what can't they be stupid or lie about?

Tbh I think we need to stop being so pressurised into accepting American liberal ideologies which is where all this recent trans wave came from. Where some people are now wanting to be called an “it”.

A lot of trans will throw up arms at this however - I personally think they ought to keep the mental health long term evaluations in place, rather than gung ho self ID. For the simple reason that changing your identity/body in so radical a way is an enormous decision and can’t be gone back upon. There are very many people; vulnerable teens/those with serious mental health concerns who are going to be missed without rigorous evaluation. They aren’t truly trans just ill. And they shouldn’t be placed into a position of life altering experiences and potential trauma to allow a small number of genuine trans to have an easier time. Nobody has an easy time finding their identity in life let’s face it. Taking away mental health screening safeguards and therapeutic support for trans people is a bad thing.

That’s before you get into women’s rights.

But ultimately, climate change has the potential to completely destroy everything, for everyone, irrevocably. Like end of days potential. So I think it has to take centre stage.

Notably, I notice there doesn’t seem to be as much opposition towards trans men vs trans women.

"You know, NHS" is my shorthand for absolutely reasons to vote Labour.

This is how I see it. As a four decades long Tory voter, and desperate to kick this lot out.

The Conservative Party fails on all counts. It used to be relied on for three things.

Law and order, lower taxes, free speech.

Hell, it even used to conserve things (clue CONSERVEative party), used to care about the countryside, national culture. Not all about profits.

Now it purely latches onto policies and weaponises them for electoral gain. The biggest example currently is the small boats crisis. The whole system is gamed not to work to stoke up such resentment while the Tories can create murky grey sky on the narrative from Labour.

Meaning the Conservatives can fail (deliberately) with a flagship policy and still generate more voters via the culture war.

The level of evil in this goes beyond any previous politics I've seen in this country.

Even Mumsnetters favourite angst ridden topic, gender, self ID etc, the Tories have done nothing to genuinely stop institutional capture.
Indeed, I'd contend they're captured too, it's just that the trans child has greater reverence and currency on the left.

Who'll have been at the wheel for fourteen years by the time of the GE while....

Stonewall have inveigled into education, prisons, FO, MoD etc?

Arts Council etc have put Britain down to our faces, at taxpayer's behest?

Gender ideology, and CRT tropes have invaded schools?

Who couldn't say what a woman was even a year ago? Clue, two former Tory PMs (Truss, bless her heart, at least knows one thing), and soon to be PM (who amazingly now, knows the definition).

Who didn't take any action on grooming scandals, the Batley School teacher, the UK wide banning of Wings Of Heaven film, the recent spat on smudged Koran?

Who put dedicated a TRA-adjacent

in as Education Secretary?

Who has ruled as school safeguarding has become a pressing issue, presided over ghost generation of kids post-pandemic?

Etc etc.

It's not the Tories weaponising culture wars.

The war comes from the TRAs.
The inability to define women as adult human females comes out of Starmer's mouth.
Labour has chosen to ally with intolerant bullies who intimidate women. But as he can't identify sex differences that somehow exonerates him?

Labour could put this issue to bed today and get on with other policies.

I don't disagree that the Tories have sleep walked into this. Most of the English speaking world has. It's now spreading to France.

In the assessment of least worst option, the Tories allow free vote on Self ID. In Scotland, Anas Sarwar whipped Labour MSPs to vote for Self ID. Having previously whipped them to vote for Hate Crime legislation that excludes sex as a hateable characteristic.

Thank you all for your responses, including the people who disagree with me. I find it so difficult to have a proper political conversation with my DH as I get so emotional when he expresses a different viewpoint to me - usually around women’s rights, misogyny and racism. We both seem to make each other really defensive when discussing these issues even though we are far closer in viewpoints than we are apart and the conversation collapses with both of us upset. I end up feeling like he thinks I’m “woke” (in the unfairly appropriated negative sense) and should be ignored and I’m sure he thinks I think he’s misogynistic and anti-feminist.

I do still disagree with my DH but it’s been helpful reading the opinions of people who share my DH’s view as I can read and process their opinions objectively without feeling attacked.

We're now in a place where the parties are totally contradictory on their missions and previous performance ratings.

Conservatives hike your tax, don't stop crime, can't maintain borders, don't conserve.

VOTE FOR US!

Labour can't define women, turn a blind eye to male activist misogyny.

VOTE FOR US!

The thing is, when you vote, you only get to put an X. That's it. There's no 'because' box to add some extra explanatory text.

Your X put next to the Tory candidate based on what you see as a better approach to women's rights is indistinguishable from the X of someone who's mainly motivated by a desire for lower taxes and who doesn't care that essential public services are falling apart. Or the X of someone who's voting Tory because they support removing the rights of refugees and agrees with Suella Braverman that human rights are for wishy washy liberals.

Your vote won't be interpreted as a vote because of one policy you like, but general support for the Conservative manifesto and what they've done during their entire time government.

On most issues I find myself strongly disagreeing with Tory policies and if I had to choose one to weight above all others it would be climate change. Because some issues can be reversed in a few years if the other party gets in. If the NHS is destroyed, it might take a couple of generations to replace it. But if we (globally) don't start cutting emissions in the next 5-10 years, and trigger climate tipping points and positive feedback cycles, that's it. No chance to fix the damage we've done and we've totally screwed it for future generations for what - thousands, millions of years? Before anyone jumps in, I know we only have a small part to play in this country, but we are definitely screwed if all countries carry on refusing to listen to scientists on the basis that none of the other governments are.

This is my view exactly.

It's not as if the Tories are all that reliable on the issue anyway.

The thing is, when you vote, you only get to put an X. That's it. There's no 'because' box to add some extra explanatory text.

Indeed not.

This would also hold true if you put your X in the Labour box because NHS, but it is indistinguishable from an X because you believe that humans can change sex and ideologically impure people who don't share your beliefs should be prosecuted. (See, for example, how it was repeatedly said that Remainers who had lent Labour their vote in 2017 were evidence of 90% of the electorate supporting Brexit).

Thing is, everybody has their red lines on why they will or will not vote for a given party. So, what happens when every party crosses one of your red lines?

So, what happens when everyparty crosses one of your red lines?

I am going with least overall harm which I think is the Labour party.

RealityFan - we are agreeing furiously. I am so heartened to read that a many times Conservative voter is so appalled by this lot that they want them out. Let's hope that these wedge issue tactics don't work.

Well, I may disappoint you yet. I have massive cognitive dissonance on voting Labour.

Starmer is allowing gender to be a wedge issue. Noone can blame GC voters, he is exclusively the author of his own problem here.

He has no issue formulating positions on Brexit, anti semitism, Corbyn. Yet he's running scared of activists and leftist cultural overreach on gender.

If Labour promised the Earth on NHS etc, rape prosecutions funding, affordable housing and childcare etc, but also we're going to legislate to outlaw abortions, bring in capital punishment and the birch in schools, deport all migrants to Rwanda, would you still vote Labour?

RealityFan - In those circumstances I would not almost certainly not vote Labour, but they have never in word or deed suggested they would support any of those things.

Every vote is an evaluation based on lived experience, information and the promises made in the manifesto. I'm not a lifelong Labour voter. In fact given the Tory safe seat where I live now a Labour vote in the next GE will most likely be wasted. Unless things change I will vote for the party with whom I am most aligned AND who have the most chance in this constituency of unseating the Tory candidate. I want Labour to have a chance, but more than that I don't want more of what the Conservatives have visited on this country.

One woman harmed is one too many. Show him Sarah Summers's crowd funder for legal action against a rape counseling service and ask him whether even one rape victim should have to choose between having a male in the session or no session at all.

I'm a working class woman who lives in a deprived area with a disabled partner whom I have supported through the dehumanising PIP process and the dismantling of the NHS, especially mental healthcare. You don't have to tell me about the effect of Tory policies, which is why I'll never vote for them.

You still don't get to tell me how to use my vote or to vote for a party that lies about something as fundamental to healthcare, education, prison policy etc as "what is a woman?"

This. I have a male family member who says it's not a big issue, and I just tell him he's got no skin in the game and has no right to tell women what they find important. It usually shuts him up.

I'm so sorry that you have such difficulties in your life and I do wish things could be easier for you. I am a working class woman doing a manual job on miniumum wage. My brother has just lost benefits during his second gruelling battle through the PIP process. He is unable to work due to multiple physical and mental health issues. I don't know how we will cope with his financial situation. I experience how the current government does not help people in ongoing, tough situations daily and, if because of this I made you feel like I was telling you how to vote then I am sorry.

My disgust at this government and the way they treat ordinary people just makes me desperate for change.

I'm sorry to hear about your brother, it's despicable that anyone should be in that position in a so-called civilised society. I hope he can access some support and is successful at appeal (assuming he hasn't exhausted that process), although I know that doesn't solve the immediate problems. My husband had to go to tribunal before he was awarded his PIP.

Left wing all my life. Then the left-wing govt in my country brought in selfID after refusing to allow debate or consult with feminists; it got pushed through as an emergency measure. I will NEVER vote left wing again. As in the UK, the conservatives here are firmly against selfID and have promised to repeal the law. Frankly, I don’t care what their motives are for opposing it. I don’t even care —heresy— what other havoc they might wreak. SelfID takes away women’s fundamental human right to privacy, safety and dignity and I will not consent.

Also, for what it’s worth, I am SICK of hearing that there are more important problems and that once they’re sorted we can turn to ‘women’s issues’. Been hearing this all my life, everywhere around the world, and funnily enough, there’s always something more important. So yes, I have finally become a single issue voter.

Thank you for your kind post. I'm so glad things were resolved for your husband but I bet you could both have done without the stress and long wait for the appeal. My brother was successful at tribunal last time and we are hopeful again this time. That so many people do have the decision reversed on appeal is an indication that the system is flawed and cruel. You're right, it's not a civilised way to treat people, especially those who already have an uphill battle in life.

I don’t think either party has an ideological position on gender issues. I think they would both do whatever gets then the most votes. I think the last year has shown how much you can change public opinion and law without changing government.
There are so many battlefronts (not wanting to sound violent, just thinking about points of conflict). The courts and the media, grass roots action and conversation, all of these are as important as governments wanting to avoid the sturgeon effect. I think labour now know this is political kryptonite, and will want to get through Parliament making sympathetic noises and leaving any actual decisions to the judiciary.

"What is a woman?" is a political litmus test.

It should be the easiest answer. Any politician who struggles with it is a large red flag. Why are they struggling?

Are they too stupid? Do they not know what a woman is? Then they are obviously incompetent at dealing with more complex and important issues.

Do they know and they lie? Then they have no integrity and you don't know what you can expect from them in the future. Why are they lying? Is it money from lobbyist? Or do they think it's the "new big thing" and it will give them power? In any case they put money and power above what is right for the people of the country which makes them incompetent for dealing with complex issues that will affect the population.

Do they actually believe a man can become a woman and deserves priviliges that will harm women? That is someone who puts his religion or ideology above what is right for the country and it's population and thus they are incompetent and not suited for the job.

Any women or man here who says this is not the most important thing needs to seriously have a sit down with some tea and maybe rethink this.

Any women or man here who says this is not the most important thing needs to seriously have a sit down with some tea and maybe rethink this.

This is an odd statement. Can you really not understand that people who have had different experiences and have different struggles to you might think other things are more important?

For example, someone who relies on foodbanks might prioritize feeding their family, people of colour might prioritize race issues, people with family in war torn countries might prioritize treatment of refugees etc.

One woman harmed is one too many

I agree - I extend this women who are refugees too ...

How can you trust a politician to improve your situation when they are not honest and/or prioritise money, power or religion?