Men's Rights Activists

[OnMyOwnSoSad]

My marriage is imploding and I have a nasty feeling that DH is caught in a MRA rabbit hole on the net. The things he's coming out with sound logical to him and without much thought sound logical too, but they are not. For example, all strategies to encourage women to advance in the workplace are inherently discriminatory towards men. It's too late to save the marriage now but I was wondering if anyone else had experienced this with the men in their lives and how you dealt with it.

I'm very sad that my lovely caring husband has turned into this bitter person.

Cut off the Internet...... (impossible I know). He s being sucked into a cult. Tell him that and that parroting these views will cost him dearly.

Its already costing his marriage, especially as he has called me sexist. I wonder where this starts? It must begin somewhere and then I can see how he'd be sucked in. The algorithms are powerful.

If the marriage is already beyond repair get out ASAP.

And be aware that the divorce will be messy.

Fingers crossed you don’t have any sons for him to influence.

Have you read "the men who hate women" by Laura Bates? It's a good look at the various online factions and the flaws in their logic.

I recommend it. The thing is, the arguments are usually based on flawed logic or outright false information. Any claims he makes eg "women do xyz more than men" ask to see the data he used to come to that conclusion.

It can even start with kids' online gaming. The book is really good at showing where it comes from and how far it reaches.

He doesn’t have any experience of being a woman, so a lot of male perspective and male pontification is not going to be jarring and self-evidently wrong, as it is for you.

The only way, I think, you can get him back from the brink is to understand why he feels hard done by, by listening, you can gently respond with the women’s perspective.

See if he thinks women need any specific laws around bodily privacy and maternity. If he accepts that giving birth to everyone puts women at a comparative disadvantage to men in the workplace. If he can’t accept that, then I think maybe he is a lost cause.

No children at all, but long marriage, 20 years plus.

Strangely - I bought that book today. I thought it looked useful. He's a clever person so it feels odd that he's falling for this utter rubbish.

Good point about make perspective. I don't think I can get him back now, I think he's lost.

I have visited several of those kinds of sites, so I can now easily spot the men who were influenced by them because the evidence they always give consists of the same few items. Nobody is allowed to add counter-evidence or to explain why the arguments were flawed, so nobody using those sites is ever learning that the evidence there isn't very good.

This is the tremendous risk that online bubbles have created, and applies to many other topics, too.

But if your husband refers to the Titanic (where women were rescued before men which was not the case in other shipwrecks of that era), for example, as proof that men have it worse, then those sites might be the cause. Or if he argues that men pay most income taxes etc. (without relating that to earned income levels which differ by sex) the same might be true, too.

I am not sure that I have anything useful to say (dont have the relevant personal experience) but wondered from your OP whether some outside event had happened to him.

eg has he been demoted at work or something, and rather than blame the system at work, is thinking this has happened to him because women's rights have taken away his security of being a man with status at work.

Or without asking you to reveal anything personal, something happen between you.

Seems strange that after 20 years he is now talking to you like this.

Or maybe he always thought this way and just never said it.

Have you asked him directly why the change?

Sorry that this has made you sad. But maybe you could make a list of things that you didn't do because of being in a couple, and enjoy only having yourself to think about!

Thanks for your info @nepeta. Those sites sound awful. He hasn't mentioned anything like the examples you noted but there is a lot of "this is what wrong with society" type of statements. He won't listen to other opinions he just uses dodgy logic to tell me I am wrong.

@IwantToRetire - he hates his job (but won't leave), and has become completely isolated since the pandemic. He hasn't really come out of lockdown. He will go out to the shops but he doesn't socialise anymore and all his friends have fallen away. I think he's lonely and isolated and is finding solace online.

Our marriage is basically having issues because of his isolation but he blames me for all of his problems. Any attempt to help or discuss it ends up with me being called all sorts of names.

This is a man who up until a few years ago was sociable, kind, funny, and intelligent...

Is it definitely beyond repair OP? Like I'm assuming it's other things as well, or is it just the MRA stuff that's too much?
On the off chance it is just the MRA stuff, I'd try maybe talking to him from a place of no judgement, try to figure out what's going on - Stuff like that doesn't just happen, he's obviously (at least imo) feeling some type of way either about himself or about life, and is clinging onto whatever he can so that he doesn't have to feel anything is on him because it's out of his control external factors, it's work places, it's society, etc.

Also if you wouldn't mind me asking, when you say;
"The things he's coming out with sound logical to him and without much thought sound logical too, but they are not. For example, all strategies to encourage women to advance in the workplace are inherently discriminatory towards men."
What are the arguments against this being logical? I've had this argument presented to me and have found myself agreeing in the past. Not absolutely all strategies of course, but some I've definitely thought, yeah that's kind of fair to say to be honest.

@SpicyMoth - the Mens rights issue is one of the factors but not the only one, I also have problems with his controlling behaviour which is becoming quite extreme.

You raise a good issue about workplace schemes which are discriminatory. The things he cites are:

• all female shortlists for MPs (hard to argue that this isn't discrimination)
• flexible working (apparently only women get given this, clearly not true)
• Women are given jobs over men even if they aren't as good as the male candidates.

I ask for examples and data, but he just brushes it off and turns things back on me saying that by asking it proves I'm a man hater.

Ah the "helping women to realise their potential is harmful to men" fallacy. This is not a zero-sum game. The only men who could lose out are the mediocre ones relying on their maleness rather than their ability and effort. Organisations that actively develop the entire workforce out-perform those that don't which results in more opportunities for everyone.

Sexism is not the same as positive discrimination. You can think positive discrimination has its place or you can think it's a poor way of addressing a power imbalance, but either way that's not the same thing as 'sexism' in itself.

He sounds incredibly muddled.

I ask for examples and data, but he just brushes it off and turns things back on me saying that by asking it proves I'm a man hater.

Does he think people marry people they hate? Or does he think the fact you no longer like who he is means you hate all men?

He's so desperate for women to actually hate men that he wills it into being even when he knows there is no data to back it up. I wonder why he wants so much for it to be true?

@JanesLittleGirl - I agree but sadly DH doesn't see it that way

@AmuseBish - that's an interesting point about positive discrimination not being the same as sexism, can you explain more? The way he puts it is that sexism is denying opportunities to a group and is the same as positive discrimination.

I ask for examples and data, but he just brushes it off and turns things back on me saying that by asking it proves I'm a man hater.

It sounds like he's too far gone tbh.

I would say to him that as he thinks you hate men, and he is a man, there's not much more to be said so it's time to go your separate ways as amicably as possible.

I'd usually say to try to explain equality vs equity to him but once someone gets to the 'you just hate men' default response when faced with stats and facts, there's no point really.

Sorry OP, it's such a shame and all too common. MRAs are utterly toxic.

Not really got time to get into it but a man e.g. date-raping, punching, groping, screaming at, not employing, making assumptions about etc etc etc a woman and not a man isn't "positive discrimination", is it?

Does he understand what is meant by equality and equity or does he still think they means"treat exactly the same, regardless of need"?

Tbh if he's too hard of thinking to understand that there's little chance of him grasping fairly basic concepts. Sorry you're in the middle of this

@AmuseBish - I just googled and found some great references talking about systemic issues which has really given me some more ways to try and reach him. Thank you!

@monsteramunch and @AmuseBish - had a try with the equity vs equality argument and for nowhere.

I fear he's lost.

If he truly thought it was an issue he'd have no problem pulling up sources, there's literally so so so many good places for sources on that kind of stuff that actually gives all information in a balance way with out agenda pre-programmed in.

That also tells me he's not actually gone to read anything for himself, he's just parroting what other men have paraphrased.
I have a lot of time for men's right's stuff if I'm being truthful.
I was very anti-feminist in my teen-hood, definitely less so now I'm almost 27, but some things I do honestly think men get shafted on.

Which is why maybe it's worth talking it out and seeing why he's clinging on to these ideas perhaps? Maybe even find sources yourself and go through one with him and show him how yes there's truth to some parts, but there's counter points and a LOT of nuance as well.
Some of it is 100% woman hating men who just want something to blame, but there's also some truth in some aspects imo.

That being said, if the controlling behaviour is becoming that extreme - Maybe it's best to not bother. Though I wonder too if that might be a by-product of not fully grasping the MRA stuff and just getting the jist through the grape vine... Not that that's an excuse of course, just wondering aloud.

OP - what has jumped out at me from your posts is that this behaviour is fairly recent and your DH hasn't really come out of lockdown and is socially isolated. Could he be going through a form of midlife crisis? I wonder if a new direction could help him, something that would get him out of the house and away from his new found online friends. Perhaps a new hobby that you could do together? Something that could displace some of the online activity? It almost sounds as though he is looking for MRA type arguments and that by arguing against you he could be validating some of the ideas inside his head.

Just a quick thought, do you or he have any family members or friends that you could ask that they take him out for a walk, an evening drink or something, to see if by getting him out of the house, away from the computer and doing more normal things, could help break the spiral he seems to be in.

However, having seen you post where you talk about controlling behaviour, please put yourself first, and even though you might want to help him, you need to [rioritise yourself, even if it means that's it for you and him.