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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A letter to Jeremy Vine

31 replies

Toseland · 31/03/2023 13:02

Dear Jeremy,

I saw your video yesterday (sorry I can't find the link again) about shopping in the 70s with your mother and seeing a David Bowie album cover that blew your mind and informed your ideas around transgenderism.

I also had an experience in the 70s that informed my ideas.

I was 6, my Mum took my baby sister, my middle sister age 3 and me to the children’s play area in the big park in town.

We needed to use the toilet so my Mum put my youngest sister in the pram, my middle sister hopped on the footplate and I followed along to the toilet nearby.

We went into the toilets, 5 basins on the left, 5 cubicles on the right, one door in and out. 3 of the cubicles were closed, my Mum chose a cubicle at the far end, opened the door and put the pram in the entrance of that cubicle leaving the door open and turned to help my sister.

I went to a toilet and came out and washed my hands. I could hear some really strange noises, like grunting, panting and rustling, coming from one of the closed cubicles, I’d never heard a noise like that before and I was wary and scared of what it was - I remember thinking that perhaps a strange wild animal was in the toilets with us?

I soon found out as the cubicle door behind me slammed open violently making us all jump and a huge man in garishly coloured high heels, fishnet stockings, a plastic mini skirt pulled up with something wet, dripping, dangling beneath it, an open shirt, a bra and a hairy chest with many necklaces and a funny lopsided wig, he grinned a big smile at me and winked, he stepped towards me and my Mum flew out of her cubicle and rushed up to me, spat on her hanky and grabbed my chin, pulling my face unusually roughly so that I was looking at her and not at the man, she proceeded to clean my face which was weird as I’d only washed it an hour before and she was acting really strange - I stared at her in confusion trying to work it all out, the man left and she said to me “stay away from men like that”.

It was only later, years later that I realised why my Mum was acting so weird that day and why I didn’t recognise her reaction - it was fear, she was absolutely terrified - I’d never seen my Mum frightened before so I didn’t know what it was.

As an adult I could see that she was trapped in a small space with 3 young girls with no way out and no way of fighting this man off and no idea if anyone would come into the toilets and rescue us. Trapped with a man who had already broken social rules. Trapped with a man who was intent on pleasuring himself. Trapped with a huge man grinning at her daughter.

I’m sorry this is long, it’s stayed with me and haunted me for nearly 50 years.

So that, Jeremy Vine, is why I don’t want men in women’s spaces.

OP posts:
EndlessTea · 31/03/2023 13:10

Wow

Whaeanui · 31/03/2023 13:12

Wow. Powerful letter. I’m so sorry you had that awful experience and 💐for your mum

Violetparis · 31/03/2023 13:15

David Bowie never claimed to be a woman so I don't get what Jeremy Vine is saying. Awful experience for you and your Mum OP.

Isheabastard · 31/03/2023 13:16

Will you send it? It very good and it would do him good to see the other side.

I grew up in a time when people like this ie fetishises were called cross dressers.

Musomama1 · 31/03/2023 13:51

What a nightmare OP no wonder it has stayed with you.

Don't know what JV is on about either, Bowie was androgynous, heavily influenced by glam rock. None of these artists ever claimed to be women. Only Twisted Sister in the 80s genuinely cross dressed tbh and they all knew they were blokes.

Trans now seems to be amongst many other things, simply androgyny.

If JV had talked about Rocky Horror then that'd make much more sense as that actually called itself trans.

Dontbelieveaword · 31/03/2023 13:55

Can't find the link either. So was JV saying he believed TW should be using women only spaces, sports etc?

KalimbaMoon · 31/03/2023 14:13

This sounds like an incredibly frightening experience OP and no wonder it has stayed with you for so many years. No child should ever have to see anything like that. 💐

As for JV, I’m not sure why he’s linking Bowie to transgenderism. Bowie flirted with androgyny and liked disrupting gender norms but he was male to the core and very happy to be male. Many, many artists flirt with androgyny - Annie Lennox is another, e.g in the video for Sweet Dreams. If Vine is talking about the Man Who Sold the World album cover, where Bowie is wearing a dress, he’s not even technically in women’s clothing. I have read a lot of Bowie trivia and that dress was apparently designed to be a man’s dress. Bowie was an interesting artist pushing boundaries. He was not trans.

Wupity · 31/03/2023 15:06

That experience is very scary. Do I take from your experience that you very much prefer single sex toilets? I don’t disagree with you but having segregated toilets is still difficult as a mum. If you have an 8 year old boy you have to send them in to the men’s alone. You can’t even go with them. Family toilets should be more readily available in more places perhaps.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 31/03/2023 15:10

That sounds awful for you and your mum Flowers

IwantToRetire · 31/03/2023 16:11

So sorry OP. Great letter - and I hope JV replies.

But I doubt he will. It is never clear whether he is really thick or plays being thick because that is his role. To turn real life news into quick banal meaningless banter that he gets paid ££££££££££££££££s for.

But he has always adopted this attitude towards trans (dont forget his main employment is the BBC) that he doesn't understand what the fuss is about.

And yes, really useful to do a whatabouterry re David Bowie because of course at the time many people in the music and film industry were challenging gender norms (gender benders). But in exactly the opposite way to current TRAs who are stuck in rigid gender stereotyping. Mick Jagger didn't need a certificate to wear a dress in Hyde Park any more than Boy George did to wear eye make up (although neither men seem that nice towards women).

And I've said this on another thread, but JV got his talk show on C5 because the previous presenter was kicked of for not apologising that a guest pointed out that Paris Lees had been born a man and had therefore experienced male privilege.

I think he represents how low broadcasting standards are now, but is protected by that still ingrained notion that an "educated" white middle class man must know what he is talking about.

So although OP has written a great letter I am afraid the recipient will be too busy counting his numerous salaries to bother too much with it.

PS Your mum sounds great. And responded as any mum would having the care of 3 young girls. This being another situation that men just dont understand.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 31/03/2023 18:12

David Bowie is proof that trans ideology is nonsense.

RealityFan · 31/03/2023 18:14

Your best bet is to shout out what's on the letter when he cycles past, the only time he pays attention to anything.

NurseCranesRolodex · 31/03/2023 18:22

JV is showing his ignorance, again. Bowie would be affronted, JV should have said seeing Bowie et al made him realise sexist stereotypes could be challenged, NOT fecking reinforced. FFS.....

Lottapianos · 31/03/2023 18:29

'David Bowie never claimed to be a woman so I don't get what Jeremy Vine is saying'

Well exactly. Bowie had naff all to do with transgender

OP, that's horrific, I'm so sorry

Toseland · 31/03/2023 18:30

Thanks for the replies and flowers - I just had to get that out! That is my starting point, it's should be the most basic of decency and safeguarding, children should not be part of someone elses sex life. I found the video https://twitter.com/AmandaSamuels4/status/1641375731644268544

https://twitter.com/AmandaSamuels4/status/1641375731644268544

OP posts:
FrancescaContini · 31/03/2023 18:33

Your poor mum 💐that’s just awful for her.

I turn the radio off if I hear JV’s smug, faux concerned voice.

KalimbaMoon · 31/03/2023 18:59

Seen Jeremy’s video now. What’s with that very slowed down speaking voice? Strange! Seems he is being very careful? Afraid of getting it wrong? So… he’s talking about the Hunky Dory record cover. I can’t believe he thinks David Bowie looks like a woman on that cover. Seems that JV is trying to be an ally and is plucking out a random childhood memory that resonated with him in his desperation to find common ground with trans people. But what a stretch, to say the handsome David Bowie was effectively a “woman” in that picture.

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 31/03/2023 19:02

Holy shit, that sounds terrifying.

You must send it to him. I wonder if we could get a GC person with a bit of clout to be a go between? Rosie Duffield or Miriam Cates, someone who he can’t just ignore.

Theunamedcat · 31/03/2023 19:06

It's the rewriting of history that gets me Bowie being portrayed as trans is the tip of it

Unless they can speak for themselves let there own words spoken stand

Don't put words in a dead person's mouth

littlbrowndog · 31/03/2023 19:39

Bowie was not a transgender. He just loved different clothes and cultures. Fuck of Jeremy. He’s not alive to say fuck off to you so here am I saying do one mate

EndlessTea · 31/03/2023 19:49

Also, at the time, there had been a number of ‘long-haired’ groups of men. Hippies weren’t that rare - love beads and face paint. I don’t think the record sleeve is particularly groundbreaking.

DobbyTheHouseElk · 31/03/2023 20:42

Please send that letter. I’m sorry you experienced that, your poor mum.

JV has a total crush on DB. He’s said many many times that he fancied him.

Appalonia · 31/03/2023 21:08

David Bowie, Prince, Boy George, Annie Lennox, Grace Jones etc were very clear about what sex they were. I'm so sorry this happened to you, your poor mum must have been terrified. Although now she'd be called a transphobic bigot for her, perfectly natural reaction. JV is so disengenuous on this issue, and his faux naive attitude is nauseating.

Datun · 31/03/2023 21:24

Bowie wasn't trans. He just liked to mess about with stereotypes.

Jeremy Vine isn't that stupid. I bet he has someone in his family who is trans, and he's just using Bowie as excuse.

Boiledbeetle · 31/03/2023 21:42

@Toseland If I was you I'd be tempted to tweet it as a reply to every one of his tweets if he's on Twitter!

💐

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