Starmer rowing back on self ID - what do we think?

[JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff]

The Times is reporting in its live politics feed that KS has explicitly said Labour will not push for self ID without public backing. I know not everyone can access their content so here is a copied n pasted version: what do you think?

Sir Keir Starmer has shifted Labour’s position on transgender rights as he said the bitter rows over Scotland’s Gender Recognition Bill showed the party must consider public opinion on the issue.The leader of the Labour Party has previously insisted it was committed to updating the Gender Recognition Act to introduce self-identification for transgender people.However, in a significant shift in Labour’s policy, he said the backlash over the SNP’s gender reform bill had made him think again. The SNP passed legislation this year that would make it significantly easier for people to acquire a gender recognition certificate and reduced the minimum age for doing so to 16. The bill was blocked by the UK government.Starmer said: “I think that if we reflect on what’s happened in Scotland, the lesson I take from that is that if you’re going to make reforms, you have to carry the public with you.

“And I think that’s a very important message and I think that’s why it’s clear that in Scotland, there should be a reset of the situation.”

Yep and all those scoffing it won’t matter. Turns out even weak Starmer can see the writing on the wall

Just… and finally

Still, he’s only trying not to be defunct like Sturgeon

And yet here is his Shadow Justice Minister, today, referring to Adam Graham (Isla Bryson) as 'she' and denying that Labour supported TW in women's prisons.

Quite

If Labour had been in power, sturgeons self ID would have gone through. She'd still be in post.

He doesn't care.

If Labour had been in power, sturgeons self ID would have gone through. She'd still be in post.

Spot on.

He climbing back up onto the fence quicker than a rat up a drainpipe - having seen what happened to the Sturgeon-Murrell party he wants to avoid the same backlash so is telling us what we want to hear. Do I believe him? No, sadly. The GRA needs to be repealed and a massive light shone onto the murky underworld of the TRAs.

Why is this lying bastard lying to me?

I think this often quoted phrase applies as much to Starmer as to any other politician.

Surely "doing it for votes" is what we want though. It could also be described as "realising that the majority of the population don't want this thing, so dropping it".

If we want our politicians to listen to us, we've got to give them credit when they do listen to us and realise they've gotten something wrong. I very much doubt that Starmer actually believes TWAW, very few men do. But he's been proceeding under the assumption that this was the way the world was going, just as many ordinary people have. There are women turning up on this board daily who have just been peaked, and are realising that that #BeKind doesn't have to be the default position. Why can't that be true of a politician too?

And there is nothing in any of his reverse-ferreting about actually understanding why women object to self-ID. It's all about the public not being ready. Sub-text: we will educate them out of this wrong-think.

Ok well I have written actual paper letters, and many emails to Labour on this issue without a reply. Maybe will try again and see if it works.

just let biological women have their own spaces and opinions ! Is it really so hard?

Its the only issue I will be voting on. And currently I trust him about as far as I could throw him. So still a no from me

Aquiru It’s got to be a good sign that not supporting Self ID is now an allowable position in the Labour Party. There must be some very different conversations happening behind the scenes than a few months ago.

Agree plus let’s not forget that recently both Blair and Mandleson have stated the party needs to move away from this policy if they wanted to form a government.

Yeah well if they are willing to wait for the public to be ready to agree that trans women are more important than female women, that's fine. They'll be waiting a bloody long time. Even Nadia Whittome should be retired before that happens.

He needs to try a bit harder but the UK needs a strong labour party.

Keep turning the wheel

This from the Labour party a month ago:
'Labour believes that the current process to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate is out-of-date. It asks people to go through a very arduous process and obtain the consent of their husband or wife (if they have one) to change gender.

All the political parties agreed that the process needed modernising, but the Conservatives dropped their plans, and now seem to be playing political games with it. Meanwhile, trans people still face discrimination and are still faced with the same outdated process.

A future Labour government would address this with a better process to support people who identify as a gender that’s different to the one they were born in.'
Sounds remarkably like self-ID to me.

If we want our politicians to listen to us, we've got to give them credit when they do listen to us and realise they've gotten something wrong.

Very much agree with this. And whilst we still want exact confirmation of what Labour think a woman is, we should be a bit happier today that Labour have realised this policy is a no go.

Sounds to me like "far too little, far too late". Labour have already lost all credibility on this issue and I wouldn't trust them for the foreseeable future, much less the Lib Dems, Greens, SNP etc.
Not that I support the Tories at all either, but voting for them to help keep the loonies off the steering wheel is arguably worthwhile.

I think it's more than that.

Sturgeon has been someone that many in wider UK politics fall for as being the consummate politician - presents well, is articulate & persuasive, and popular while able to deploy smoke & mirrors over her failures.

I think it's not just about losing votes - it's about how someone many saw as unassailable in terms of public support & admiration, not only lost support (the huge drop in SNP membership is just the tip of the iceberg) but that the fall out from her determination to disregard legitimate concerns ended up with her effective downfall. Her wilful blindness to the reality of what she was forcing on the Scottish public exposed her in ways she's not had to face in other areas. And her response wasn't convincing for anyone.

Starmer isn't bothered about losing a few votes. He's bothered about ending up with the same fate.

Sturgeon's 'fair well' tour illustrates the regard she's held in outside Scotland. They only look at her electoral success (without really looking at the dire quality of opposition) & marvel at how 'relatable' she is in comparison to her political opponents - she comes out more favourable on any metric compared to Johnson for example.

But ultimately, her success has been to the detriment of Scotland & her arrogance got her to this point.

The one thing I'd say starmer seems to be capable of (eventually) is reading the room & seeing the impact this has had in Scotland. I'd also not discount all the work women have been doing in England on this - every time there's been a waving away of women's voices when things have gone wrong, you've all plugged away at it & kept focus on why this is bad for women & child safeguarding etc.

But, I don't trust him either. He's taken too long to get to this point & it's not decency or listening that brought him here. It's self interest & self preservation.

He speaks from both sides of his mouth.

I don't know, I almost have less respect for him saying it with a gun to his head than saying it because he actually believes it. People with no real convictions or principles are dangerous in positions of power. Look at Liz Truss.

I don't really care what he believes.

As long as he doesn't bring in Self ID and we get some proper guidance from EHRC about women single sex spaces.

Every day, we get more and more examples of why TW on women's spaces is not good for women.

If Self ID is not in place in the next couple of years then I don't think it will ever be in place.

People are wakening up. At least we are in a far better position than other countries where the laws in place do still support women. And with further clarity for EA then should support women more.

You are right. This is hopeful. I’m going to go away and think about joining the Labour Party to campaign from the inside.

Well said 👏👏

I don’t trust Starmer & Co on this issue either - this recent bout of havering is all part of their drive to win votes from older women. It’s cynical!

I think it's not enough but better than nothing and I am desperate for a centrist party to be back in so he will get my vote. Surely none of you are going to vote Tory after this current shit show? And what will abstaining achieve? Absolutely nothing?

What will voting green or lib dem achieve? Nothing much either until we being in proportional representation.

It's far from ideal but its time for pragmatism imho. Supporting feminism is also about women having decent childcare provision, decent pay, a functioning NHS, in particular good quality pre- and post- natal care, safe policing, a functioning transport system, as well as the all important safe spaces just for women.

And you trust him to do the right thing if this garners him enough votes? Women have been yelling for YEARS about this. Yet he only decides to actually listen when another party leader who didn't listen has to resign for not listening? You honestly believe he's all of a sudden decided that women don't actually have penises, and men don't have cervices? You're a far more generous person than I.