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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

They walk among us

58 replies

TooManyAnimals94 · 22/03/2023 20:13

I've ummed and ahhed about posting this but I've been following this topic for a while now and sometimes I feel you are the only sane people anywhere.
I had a conversation slightly heated debate with a colleague today that initially made me angry and now I'm feeling quite upset about it because I realised that so few people actually LISTEN TO WOMEN.

Our school had a charity football match to raise money for Stonewall's Inclusion in Sport initiative. For reasons I'm sure you can understand I did not participate in any way and sat in the staff room minding my own.
There were two others there and we're having a jokey conversation about how they weren't joining in because they're no good at sport. I said (and maybe I shouldn't have) that I thought it was a questionable charity, especially for an all girl's school.
They asked me what I meant and I said I believed Stonewall did some excellent work a few years ago but they have lost their way and seem obsessed with supporting aggressive TRAs, getting self ID made into law and endangering women and girls.
One of the two (a biology teacher- go figure) completely understood what I meant about single sex spaces and said before I could that self ID could lead to predators taking advantage.
The second man proceeded to tell me that TWAW, men are no more of a threat than another woman? And in the countries where self ID had been brought in, nothing awful had happened. I couldn't really counter this because I don't know that much about Ireland, Finland or NZ (but I plan to find out!)

But this is what really shocked and horrified me. I said, what if a woman who has been raped or abused by her partner flees to a refuge and the first member of staff she meets is a biological male. Does she not have the right to a completely safe space? And he said "But that hypothetical person is not a man, she's a transwoman and is no more of a threat than any other woman"

I said what about perceived threat ? And he basically shrugged and said women should "accept " TWAW.

He also said segregation in prisons was not necessary because TW were just as vulnerable as women and self ID wouldn't affect bathrooms and changing rooms because it's already illegal to sexually harass someone in a changing room. Oh ok we'll just wait till there's an actual assault then shall we? Just offer women and girls up as sacrificial lambs.

I tried a different route and said OK, well what does it mean to "feel like a man" and he came out with some waffle about a combination of biology and culture??

This is a man with an Oxford doctorate. What on earth has happened to his brain? He's also a gay man who I'm sure would be horrified to be on a date with someone who turned out to have a vagina instead of a penis.

I'm quite thick skinned but I'm really upset at the fact my views were dismissed as right wing propaganda and my perfectly reasonable expectations of keeping single sex spaces mansplained away.

People would never suggest ethnic minorities are "silly" for talking about discrimination against them, or disabled people or any other group. Why this absolute refusal to listen to things that women have actually experienced?

OP posts:
BlackForestCake · 22/03/2023 20:24

I used to think that repressive regimes got their populations to support them because they were so repressive and people were afraid.

Now I think it's much simpler and that a lot of people will just believe anything they're told.

Russians believe what the government tells them. Chinese believe what the government tells them. And so do we.

maltravers · 22/03/2023 20:24

Because no one is interested in women’s oppression unfortunately. Other people’s “rights” are always more important.

Rightsraptor · 22/03/2023 20:27

I'm not surprised you're upset,@TooManyAnimals94 and I would be too. We know on here that academic intelligence does not equal common or garden intelligence - quite the opposite, in fact. People with lots of degrees are often the most sold on this ideology. I have no idea why but wouldn't waste my time trying to figure it out. There's probably no answer.

Your colleague is a man and will never know what it is to live as a woman. It's so easy for him to tell women what we should do, it's never going to affect him after all. He's shown you what a knob he is. Believe him.

UWhatNow · 22/03/2023 20:32

Orwell said something along the lines of (forgive the paraphrasing): ‘some ideas are so stupid, only intellectuals can believe them.’

Instead of trying to argue with stupid I would snort and just dismiss their ignorance as stuff and nonsense. You can’t change sex. They are still men and men as a sex class are more of a threat to women than the other way around. Indisputable facts in any conceivable scenario.

Apollo441 · 22/03/2023 20:50

Who believes this 'women are just as dangerous too bollox'?
Tell your colleague 99% of sexual assaults are carried out by men, however they identify. Infact it seems transwomen are more likely to be sexual offenders given that over 50% of those claiming to be transwomen are in for sexual offensives (a much higher percentage than men). Either it's true or these people aren't 'real' transwomen and if they aren't 'real' transwomen, how can we tell the difference. So harmless, they are not and for that reason should be treated exactly the same way other males. If your colleague has any research that shows that they don't offend at the same rate would he kindly show it because we have data from the Ministry of Justice and the census so I'd be interested to see it (he won't have any evidence by the way).

ÉireannachÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉ · 22/03/2023 20:51

TooManyAnimals94 · 22/03/2023 20:13

I've ummed and ahhed about posting this but I've been following this topic for a while now and sometimes I feel you are the only sane people anywhere.
I had a conversation slightly heated debate with a colleague today that initially made me angry and now I'm feeling quite upset about it because I realised that so few people actually LISTEN TO WOMEN.

Our school had a charity football match to raise money for Stonewall's Inclusion in Sport initiative. For reasons I'm sure you can understand I did not participate in any way and sat in the staff room minding my own.
There were two others there and we're having a jokey conversation about how they weren't joining in because they're no good at sport. I said (and maybe I shouldn't have) that I thought it was a questionable charity, especially for an all girl's school.
They asked me what I meant and I said I believed Stonewall did some excellent work a few years ago but they have lost their way and seem obsessed with supporting aggressive TRAs, getting self ID made into law and endangering women and girls.
One of the two (a biology teacher- go figure) completely understood what I meant about single sex spaces and said before I could that self ID could lead to predators taking advantage.
The second man proceeded to tell me that TWAW, men are no more of a threat than another woman? And in the countries where self ID had been brought in, nothing awful had happened. I couldn't really counter this because I don't know that much about Ireland, Finland or NZ (but I plan to find out!)

But this is what really shocked and horrified me. I said, what if a woman who has been raped or abused by her partner flees to a refuge and the first member of staff she meets is a biological male. Does she not have the right to a completely safe space? And he said "But that hypothetical person is not a man, she's a transwoman and is no more of a threat than any other woman"

I said what about perceived threat ? And he basically shrugged and said women should "accept " TWAW.

He also said segregation in prisons was not necessary because TW were just as vulnerable as women and self ID wouldn't affect bathrooms and changing rooms because it's already illegal to sexually harass someone in a changing room. Oh ok we'll just wait till there's an actual assault then shall we? Just offer women and girls up as sacrificial lambs.

I tried a different route and said OK, well what does it mean to "feel like a man" and he came out with some waffle about a combination of biology and culture??

This is a man with an Oxford doctorate. What on earth has happened to his brain? He's also a gay man who I'm sure would be horrified to be on a date with someone who turned out to have a vagina instead of a penis.

I'm quite thick skinned but I'm really upset at the fact my views were dismissed as right wing propaganda and my perfectly reasonable expectations of keeping single sex spaces mansplained away.

People would never suggest ethnic minorities are "silly" for talking about discrimination against them, or disabled people or any other group. Why this absolute refusal to listen to things that women have actually experienced?

Oh there's a shocker! A very privileged male who supports trans rights over women's!!!

Despite the fact I would of expected him to have have that opinion it is no less disappointing and frustrating. Just eugh. 😔

TooManyAnimals94 · 22/03/2023 20:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

StephanieSuperpowers · 22/03/2023 20:56

Personally, I have come to the point where I just tell the truth, I'm not a believer in their religion and there's no point in trying to convert me. I don't believe in souls, immortal or gendered, so basically preach elsewhere.

TooManyAnimals94 · 22/03/2023 20:57

@Apollo441 I did calmly point this out and whilst he was adamant I was wrong I don't remember any statistics to back up his claim.

He said "well the real problem is the low rate of rape prosecutions". Hmm well that is definitely a problem but even more so if you're told it couldn't be rape because there were no men in that prison/hospital whatever. Again on this one he didn't have an answer.

OP posts:
picklemewalnuts · 22/03/2023 20:59

I'm moving away from raising rational points and into 'well obviously no one actually thinks TW are just like 'other women', cos that would be silly'.
Obviously TW are male as humans can't change sex.
Obviously changing areas need to be segregated by sex not gender identity, it would be ridiculous and dangerous to let boys and girls change together.

I no longer challenge or discuss as it simply isn't open to debate.
I don't need to persuade anyone of what's glaringly obvious.

FKATondelayo · 22/03/2023 21:00

The real problem is the low rate of rape convictions but also no-one would sexually harass you in the toilet because it's illegal?

He sounds confused.

DojaPhat · 22/03/2023 21:05

Thing is @TooManyAnimals94 airing your views like this in the workplace is massively shaky ground - I've always found it's best to test the waters before committing yourself to saying anything which could land you in hot water regardless if the people you're speaking to agree with you or not.

Also, ethnic minorities are routinely told they are "playing the race" card when they talk about their experiences, indeed they are often told they are over-reacting to micro-aggressions and instances of discrimination. The knock on effect psychologically breaks you down. So whilst people may not call them "silly", they are often ignored or only wheeled out to talk about their experiences during xyz heritage month or whatever.

TooManyAnimals94 · 22/03/2023 21:05

@FKATondelayo I was certainly confused. But thanks to this thread I won't be sucked in again. I will adopt a "don't ask, don't tell" policy and refuse to engage in any "debates" in future.

It's really not worth it. My time would be much better spent getting involved with causes that actually help women.

OP posts:
TheABC · 22/03/2023 21:06

I'd have turned it back on him.

Why should I be expected to accept a man in a dress acting out his AGP fetish in my safe space?

When he says "but they are women," get him to explain the objective difference.

TooManyAnimals94 · 22/03/2023 21:09

@DojaPhat I wouldn't say I was "airing a view". I was stating biological facts. I expressed a view on the charity, but I wouldn't support an RSPCA event either because I've had negative experiences with them- would that put me on shaky ground too?
I know what you mean but it just proves my point that you can air your views of they're the "right" ones, but the rest of us sit quiet?

OP posts:
Codlingmoths · 22/03/2023 21:24

You just say oh yes, you really don’t know the stats on violence against women and girls do you? Might as well just announce you’ve never actually spent a whole second caring about women’s safety.

Thisisthedawningoftheageofaquarius · 22/03/2023 21:32

I know what you mean OP; I had similar with a really good male friend in work. No matter what I said about prison - sport - transing gay away - children & unnecessary drugs / surgeries - lesbian “cotton ceiling “ he’d just say Twaw. So infuriating. I even brought up barbie Kardashian and he said it was a right wing trope (even tho it was really happening).
I think it’s a male privilege to “be kind” cos they just don’t get it.

i don’t bother talking about it with him; just hoping he’ll eventually peak himself…

CoraggioCara · 22/03/2023 21:35

The MoJ stats are conclusive. There are lots and lots of rapists & sex offenders who are transwomen.

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/

So either:

Transwomen rape more than women and so are not the same as women

Or

Sexual predators will take advantage of self ID and pretend to be transwomen to gain access to vulnerable women in prisons/hospitals etc.

Or both. But it cannot be neither. At least one of these statements must be true.

None of this is remotely helpful to you though because you are making the rookie mistake of thinking that your colleague has any regard for the safety of women and girls. He doesn't. What he really really does care about is the glowing feeling he gets when he's all progressive and right, while at the same time putting you, a woman, in your place. For a misogynist it's the ultimate win-win.

Thisisthedawningoftheageofaquarius · 22/03/2023 21:35

Also a gay friend who also maintains TWAW etc - isn’t bothered about sports - changing rooms (what’s the big deal?!) was funny when I asked if he’d date a trans man - he mimicked puking and said no way 🤷‍♀️

TooManyAnimals94 · 22/03/2023 21:39

@Thisisthedawningoftheageofaquarius it's frustrating isn't it? I feel like it would be very immature to 'cut him out' because of one view but I think it speaks to a deep routed misogyny and lack of awareness.

I quite regularly have theological discussions with the deacon there and it doesn't bother me he believes in God and I don't think it bothers him I don't but I don't ever feel dismissed like I did today.

OP posts:
TooManyAnimals94 · 22/03/2023 21:40

*deep rooted

OP posts:
4plusthehound · 22/03/2023 21:42

TooManyAnimals94 · 22/03/2023 20:13

I've ummed and ahhed about posting this but I've been following this topic for a while now and sometimes I feel you are the only sane people anywhere.
I had a conversation slightly heated debate with a colleague today that initially made me angry and now I'm feeling quite upset about it because I realised that so few people actually LISTEN TO WOMEN.

Our school had a charity football match to raise money for Stonewall's Inclusion in Sport initiative. For reasons I'm sure you can understand I did not participate in any way and sat in the staff room minding my own.
There were two others there and we're having a jokey conversation about how they weren't joining in because they're no good at sport. I said (and maybe I shouldn't have) that I thought it was a questionable charity, especially for an all girl's school.
They asked me what I meant and I said I believed Stonewall did some excellent work a few years ago but they have lost their way and seem obsessed with supporting aggressive TRAs, getting self ID made into law and endangering women and girls.
One of the two (a biology teacher- go figure) completely understood what I meant about single sex spaces and said before I could that self ID could lead to predators taking advantage.
The second man proceeded to tell me that TWAW, men are no more of a threat than another woman? And in the countries where self ID had been brought in, nothing awful had happened. I couldn't really counter this because I don't know that much about Ireland, Finland or NZ (but I plan to find out!)

But this is what really shocked and horrified me. I said, what if a woman who has been raped or abused by her partner flees to a refuge and the first member of staff she meets is a biological male. Does she not have the right to a completely safe space? And he said "But that hypothetical person is not a man, she's a transwoman and is no more of a threat than any other woman"

I said what about perceived threat ? And he basically shrugged and said women should "accept " TWAW.

He also said segregation in prisons was not necessary because TW were just as vulnerable as women and self ID wouldn't affect bathrooms and changing rooms because it's already illegal to sexually harass someone in a changing room. Oh ok we'll just wait till there's an actual assault then shall we? Just offer women and girls up as sacrificial lambs.

I tried a different route and said OK, well what does it mean to "feel like a man" and he came out with some waffle about a combination of biology and culture??

This is a man with an Oxford doctorate. What on earth has happened to his brain? He's also a gay man who I'm sure would be horrified to be on a date with someone who turned out to have a vagina instead of a penis.

I'm quite thick skinned but I'm really upset at the fact my views were dismissed as right wing propaganda and my perfectly reasonable expectations of keeping single sex spaces mansplained away.

People would never suggest ethnic minorities are "silly" for talking about discrimination against them, or disabled people or any other group. Why this absolute refusal to listen to things that women have actually experienced?

Swop it around on him?

Next time have the emphasis on Transmen, and his dating pool.

TooManyAnimals94 · 22/03/2023 21:42

@CoraggioCara you say it's a rookie mistake but sadly misogynists don't have bells around their necks like cats to announce their presence...sometimes you don't know until they start talking 😂

OP posts:
GrinAndVomit · 22/03/2023 21:46

There’s nothing you could have said because he will always prioritise males. He’s just a common garden variety misogynist.
So don’t feel bad. He was never going to listen to you. Well done for not backing down.