Using "they/their" pronouns by default?

[CascadiaHoney]

DD goes to an all-girls state secondary school. Every week, they send out a newsletter which includes any special achievements by the girls, eg "Olivia S (9 Ash class) got a distinction in her grade 5 piano exam". They have a few trans boys and non-binary students, so sometimes you might see, "Felix B (8 Willow class) raised £124 for the RSPCA with his sponsored litter-pick", or "Clay P (10 Beech class) will be selling free-range eggs from their chickens at break time this Friday".

Recently, I have noticed that all the students in certain year groups seem to have they/their pronouns (there are usually about eight students mentioned per year group). First one year group, then another, and now a third year group, seem to exclusively use they and their. The other year groups (so far) are still mostly using she/her.

Is it really likely that all eight of a random sample of children (per year group of 240) are now choosing to use they/their pronouns? It seems so sudden - this has happened over just a few weeks. Or does this reflect the ideology of the HoY of certain year groups (the list of students with special achievements in each year group is collated by their HoY) who perhaps want they/their pronouns to become the default for everybody? In which case, surely the girls who haven't chosen to use they/their pronouns are being misgendered! Should I query this with school, or will I be "that" parent? I'm otherwise very happy with the school and think they do a great job under difficult circumstances.

For context, DS is at the brother school and their newsletter is full of he/his...

Social contagion. Hopefully, if nobody makes a big fuss, they’ll grow out of it.

Personally, I will always use people's preferred pronouns if I know them. If not, I ALWAYS use she/her. We have a lot of years of default he/him to make up, and I feel I need to do my bit.

Doesn't this mean that (within their own ideology) they are 'misgendering' i.e. committing 'literal villence' against most of the children?

I have seen this occasionally in school communications but assumed it was the use of a template - eg weekly names just get added to a sentence which already says “Well done to X of Y class for their great achievement in Z”. Could it be this?

Our school now uses they/their for all students. Presumably to make things easier for teachers/admin staff.

I have said it before on other threads but I suspect that the non binaries will win because it is easier for people to default to they/them. I see it everywhere now.

As we all know, and as Caroline Criado Perez pointed out in her excellent book, when gender neutral is the “norm”, it generally ends up meaning that male is the default, or what comes out on top.

I agree with CurlewKate about defaulting to female pronouns when we don’t know or it doesn’t matter. I continue to do this and I love how empowering it feels, as with using other words of the female sex, sister, mother, daughter.

Gender neutral spaces are easier for businesses and public services to administer, especially now because “No policing anyone’s gender” which is absolutely fraught.

People are lazy and using he or she for some reason is 3 letters too much for many people.

Non-binary, gender neutral, mixed sex, pretending there are no differences between the sexes is easier in public policy and business. It is however bad for women and girls when none of our needs can be acknowledged and we are just smaller, weaker, more inconvenient (due to biological processes) employees or service users.

I am not quite sure how those who want “validation” as the opposite sex get what they want in this system either but I imagine that the “AMAB” ones will work it out.

My workplace has mixed sex toilets and changing rooms labelled “Staff Only” for the “staff”, one room per floor. I don’t like it but I don’t feel able to say so.

If everyone is they/them, nonbinaries don't win. They/them only carries cred when it is limited to the special few who are clever enough to not be boring old women or men like the rest of us

I have said it before on other threads but I suspect that the non binaries will win because it is easier for people to default to they/them. I see it everywhere now.

But how will the non binaries signal their specialness if they don’t get to demand awkward-to-use pronouns? Not sure they will view this as a win.

This is more and more common. A lot of mass comms stuff does it because they can just change out names without worrying about matching pronouns. Facebook does it, for example. My kids school report cards do because it is just a cut and paste job.

I've noticed my kids do it almost all the time too, without even thinking about it.

I think it kind of sounds like shit but I suspect it will become more and more common with digital communications being so important.

@PriOn1 @Newyeardietstartstomorrow True, but my suspicion here is not that entire year groups have all suddenly become non-binary (although I suppose that might have happened) but that for some reason, certain HoY appear to be using they/their pronouns for all the students, regardless of how they identify.

@Catabogus @piedbeauty I would agree with this if the school were mixed, but it's an all girls school so surely the default should be she/her?

@CurlewKate @PomegranateOfPersephone I also use people's personal pronouns where I know them. I had no problem with the newsletter that talked about Felix and his litter-pick, or Clay and their chickens (even though Felix and Clay are both biologically female). But I don't think they/them should be the default for all the girls in a girls' school (especially when the boys' school is still unapologetically using he/his!).

I think @DemiColon is right and this will become more common, unfortunately. But it sounds so clunky and still grates every time I read or hear it.

I would agree with this if the school were mixed, but it's an all girls school so surely the default should be she/her?

I don't think it matters what sex the kids are; teachers are worried about how they identify, whether they are girls or boys, so it's just easier to write 'they', even in an all-girls school.

DD went to an all-girls school, and it was good about keeping she/her pronouns. Which I liked.

But in your school, if whole year groups are being called 'they', I'd guess that so many girls are identifying as NB that it's just easier to call them all 'they'. Just in case.

I’ve heard much older students complaining about the old us women who use they/their pronouns for everyone with blue hair. Apparently it’s lazy and doesn’t enable people to show their ( other pronouns are available) true identity.

It's pretty messed up in my view that you can send your female children to an 'all girls' school and end up with the perception at least that maybe it's not all girls.

You should send the Head a copy of the Interim Cass Report conclusion regarding social transition:

“Social transition – this may not be thought of as an intervention or treatment, because it is not something that happens within health services. However, it is important to view it as an active intervention because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning. There are different views on the benefits versus the harms of early social transition. Whatever position one takes, it is important to acknowledge that it is not a neutral act, and better information is needed about outcomes.”

I guarantee there would be completely different outcomes if those kids who decided they were no longer girls were not allowed to continue in the school!

Absolutely right that social transition is not a neutral act.
When schools use non sexed pronouns they are promoting the ideology that may lead these girls to medically and surgically damaging their bodies.
These children need adults to stand up and teach them about reality, including that girls can't become boys. Those that are genuinely distressed about that need proper help with their mental health.
The rest of them would cope.
They are being seriously let down by adults who are not willing to set boundaries in the misguided belief they are being 'kind'.

It's all a bit impersonal isn't it - the template excuse is there, but really, how genuine do congratulations feel when you know it's just your number whacked in a template, that they can't even be bothered to change to the right pronouns (and if there really are more they/thems at a girl's school, then that girls school has a huge social contagion problem)

I use they/them if I don't know someone, and especially if I can't guess from their name if they are male or female, but otherwise I'm gonna use sex-based pronouns if they are standing there with me or I know them, and a school that can't be bothered to get to know their students well enough to not use distancing pronouns is a bit of a red flag to me.

I think it is a case of be careful what you wish for.

Queer theory and gender identity ideology are examples of extreme individualism. However that just isn’t how humanity works. We can’t ultimately control how others perceive us or talk about us. The adherents of this new belief system will not control it in the end and it will likely turn out to be a Pyrrhic Victory for them.

I can imagine that the desert mothers and fathers of early Christianity were likely not on board with what happened once the Roman Empire got hold of their belief system.

Once power and wealth take charge of any belief system the original adherents will lose control of it. The belief system then becomes a tool for controlling the populace rather than a tool for individual empowerment, enlightenment, improvement etc

No it won’t suit those identifying as non binary now but I can see that their philosophy and terminology suits states and corporations alike as well as the lazy tendencies of us human beings to want to simplify everything by using the fewest words and the fewest resources possible. We won’t be risking upsetting a person with histrionic personality disorder or inciting narcissistic rage when everyone is a “person” referred to as “they” which ironically leads to a lessening of individuality rather than the radical individualism currently associated with gender identity and “queerness”.

The OP demonstrates how schools are all gradually going down this route. My daughter’s school has been doing it for a while. My partner’s workplace does it, all the tech companies are doing it. I see many people doing it in writing and hear it in conversation using they for a known man or woman. So it actually wouldn’t surprise now that a single sex school would do it, after all the OP has already mentioned that some of the girls demand wrong sex pronouns so the school admin likely find it easier to apply the third person plural to everyone rather than risk upsetting children or parents particularly as personal choices may be subject to change at any moment.

Personally I take a stand against this by using correct sex singular pronouns out of earshot of anyone who it would offend and saying he or she rather than they when I am talking about unknown or unspecified individuals.

Some universities advise staff and students to use they/them for everyone unless they specifically tell you their pronouns. There was a Times article at the end of February about the university of Kent doing this.

Yep.

I had to turn off Instagram notifications because it calls everyone they/them.

‘Lady McFemale added to their story’

Even people who have filled out the pronoun section with a standard issue choice get they/themmed in the notification system (which shows how little Instagram care/what an empty virtue signal the pronoun section turned out to be!)

I move in very woke student circles and I have friend who uses they/them pronouns for everyone, including me, behind their backs, “just in case”. It has led to some confusion.

No she does not know my views on this. Lost cause!

True. My NB mate has gone largely under the radar because of the friend that calls everyone they.

Newyeardietstartstomorrow · Today 13:21This reply has been deleted
Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.
Absolutely no idea why I got deleted, I didn't say anything controversial, certainly not prejudiced or offensive

What about the ones who identity as one or more of the what, 94 other ‘genders’?

Just kidding.

This is absolute bullshit. They should be telling the girls that outside of school they can love who they want, wear what they want, and do whatever they want (legally), and that being female shouldn’t stop this. I can’t find any potential positive conclusion from this approach whatever.

I resist!