Using "they/their" pronouns by default?

[CascadiaHoney]

DD goes to an all-girls state secondary school. Every week, they send out a newsletter which includes any special achievements by the girls, eg "Olivia S (9 Ash class) got a distinction in her grade 5 piano exam". They have a few trans boys and non-binary students, so sometimes you might see, "Felix B (8 Willow class) raised £124 for the RSPCA with his sponsored litter-pick", or "Clay P (10 Beech class) will be selling free-range eggs from their chickens at break time this Friday".

Recently, I have noticed that all the students in certain year groups seem to have they/their pronouns (there are usually about eight students mentioned per year group). First one year group, then another, and now a third year group, seem to exclusively use they and their. The other year groups (so far) are still mostly using she/her.

Is it really likely that all eight of a random sample of children (per year group of 240) are now choosing to use they/their pronouns? It seems so sudden - this has happened over just a few weeks. Or does this reflect the ideology of the HoY of certain year groups (the list of students with special achievements in each year group is collated by their HoY) who perhaps want they/their pronouns to become the default for everybody? In which case, surely the girls who haven't chosen to use they/their pronouns are being misgendered! Should I query this with school, or will I be "that" parent? I'm otherwise very happy with the school and think they do a great job under difficult circumstances.

For context, DS is at the brother school and their newsletter is full of he/his...

[IvyTwines]

I've noticed this in broadcasting. It seems to be the default now, rather than saying her or his. For example, a history programme where the presenters show a skeleton that they (presenters, plural) then refer to with 'they, their' rather than he, his.

I've also noticed that when a female celebrity announces that she now goes by she/her or they/them simultaneously, the publication will refer to her by the they/them, not she/her, throughout the piece. It's like the writers can't wait to junk the boring old vanilla female pronouns and 'identity'.

But yes, if schools now use it as the default, will it fizzle out, or will the girls move over to he/himming?

[RosaBonheur]

If everyone in the world decided to identify as a they/them, we'd be right back where we started: humans, half of whom are biologically male and half of whom are biologically female.

But the problem of generalising they/them is that it inevitably makes male the default.

This is really obvious in French, which has no gender neutral pronoun so they had to invent one. So "iel" was born; a cross between "il" and "elle". But possessive pronouns are gendered according to the object being possessed, not the person doing the possessing. So "his table" and "her table" are both "sa table" because table is feminine.

The main area where the gender of the person makes a difference is in verb conjugations, which have an extra "e" on the end if the person's gender is feminine. You either have an extra "e" or you don't. There's no way to split it down the middle. So "iel" defaults to the masculine and becomes grammatically indistinguishable from "il". This happens with third person plural pronouns too, all male groups are "ils", all female groups are "elles", and mixed groups (even if there are 20 women and one man) default to the masculine and become "ils". So it was inevitable really.

[RosaBonheur]

@TheMarzipanDildo

I move in very woke student circles and I have friend who uses they/them pronouns for everyone, including me, behind their backs, “just in case”. It has led to some confusion.

No she does not know my views on this. Lost cause!

I would be interested to know why she thinks it's less offensive to "they/them" someone who is a "she/her" than it is to "she/her" someone who is a "they/them".

Either getting someone's pronouns right matters or it doesn't.

If it does, she needs to respect everyone's pronouns, and by "they/them"-ing everyone she's deliberately misgendering most people.

If it doesn't, we should all be able to just use sex based pronouns like we have been doing since the dawn of time without worrying about making grown adults cry.

[TheMarzipanDildo]

@RosaBonheur

I would be interested to know why she thinks it's less offensive to "they/them" someone who is a "she/her" than it is to "she/her" someone who is a "they/them".

Either getting someone's pronouns right matters or it doesn't.

If it does, she needs to respect everyone's pronouns, and by "they/them"-ing everyone she's deliberately misgendering most people.

If it doesn't, we should all be able to just use sex based pronouns like we have been doing since the dawn of time without worrying about making grown adults cry.

Quite. I’m not particularly bothered about being called “they”, except I’m worried that people who don’t already know me will think I buy into this stuff.

Strangely, when she refers to our NB friend in her company she often slips up and calls her “she” (and then very conspicuously apologises). I don’t think the NB friend even cares, she refers to herself as “she” fgs!

[NecessaryScene]

If everyone in the world decided to identify as a they/them, we'd be right back where we started: humans, half of whom are biologically male and half of whom are biologically female.

A fair few of whom would be pissed-off non-binaries. I've posted this on a previous pronoun thread, but it's good enough to repeat:

[serendipitea]

I work at a University, and my male 30-yr old colleagues are already using they as default. We had to introduce a soon-to-join colleague in our newsletter - someone obviously male, with a male name, and my young colleague wanted to refer to the new colleague as they but I was able to over-rule and leave him as he. And another colleague referred to me as a "they" in email to a third party. Irritating, but I couldn't say anything as I obviously didn't put out my "preferred pronouns ".

[Droppit]

I was referred to as 'they/them' recently by a young sales assistant who knew my name but had not asked me what my pronouns are. It didn't really bother me but I thought it was odd because if you had to guess my pronouns you would be slightly bonkers not to guess she/her.

I understand the intention not to misgender people, but the reality is she ended up misgendering me. 🙃

[CascadiaHoney]

Yes. I'm sure the intentions are good and, as I said earlier, this is a great school with fantastic, dedicated teachers. But it just irks me a little that even in a girls school that really encourages STEM, educates the girls about gender pay gaps, talks about the Bechdel test etc, there is this insidious message implying that the feelings of the students who have tried to opt out of being female, matter more than those who haven't.