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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Richard Dawkins says trans activists 'bullied' JK Rowling for standing up for women's rights

159 replies

PorcelinaV · 21/03/2023 20:57

Richard Dawkins says trans activists 'bullied' JK Rowling for standing up for women's rights

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/richard-dawkins-says-trans-activists-29511706

Richard Dawkins claims trans activists 'bullied' Harry Potter author JK Rowling and Kathleen Stock for standing up for women's rights....

He claimed that it was very upsetting that a "tiny minority" of people managed to capture the discourse to "talk errant nonsense".

Richard Dawkins says trans activists 'bullied' Harry Potter author JK Rowling

The biologist called out the bullying of the Harry Potter author and Kathleen Stock for asking people to discuss certain points of controversial issues

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/richard-dawkins-says-trans-activists-29511706

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PorcelinaV · 23/03/2023 10:23

Dawkins doesn't need to be an expert on everything Christian theology, but he does need to be competent when he discusses arguments for / against the existence of God.

I think it's doubtful that he had the knowledge to be writing on philosophy.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/dawkins-vs-aquinas-fail

Dawkins vs. Aquinas

Richard Dawkins thinks that he's refuted St. Thomas Aquinas' five proofs of God's existence. Unfortunately, all he's really done is misunderstood them.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/dawkins-vs-aquinas-fail

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IamAporcupine · 23/03/2023 10:38

TomPinch · 23/03/2023 08:11

OK - I have tried to find a rebuttal / critique of that Nature article but all I can find is blogposts and similar things... can anyone recommend me anything from a scientific journal - ie, like Nature?

I find the Paradox Institute the best source for this.
https://www.theparadoxinstitute.com/read/what-are-sexes

But I don't think there has been a peer-reviewed rebuttal of those infamous articles. There is a reason for that. Scientific journals do not publish many rebuttals to flat earther's claims either.

What are Sexes? — Paradox Institute

What are ‘sexes’? And what are male and female? In this post, we’ll explore what sexes ultimately are and how they are universally defined across species.

https://www.theparadoxinstitute.com/read/what-are-sexes

SinnerBoy · 23/03/2023 10:40

Kucinghitam

Well, sorry to drag you into it, I just remember your refutation of it in Another Place. Anyway, @Sunnava has done the necessary!

SinnerBoy · 23/03/2023 10:42

@PorcelinaV

Whilst Aquinas was undoubtedly highly intelligent, his argument was, to reduce it, These things are beyond my ken, therefore, God did it.

Grammarnut · 23/03/2023 11:30

Signalbox · 22/03/2023 08:29

I can’t stand Dawkins and his ill informed rants against Christianity - he’s a biologist, not a theologian, and equivalent to a vicar trying to pontificate on biology after reading Noddy’s guide to wildlife

Does a person need to be a theologian to express an opinion about religion / Christianity now?

I don't think so. Dawkins has read the Bible and recommends it as a piece of literature, too.

TheBiologyStupid · 23/03/2023 11:56

SinnerBoy · 23/03/2023 07:16

@EdgeOfACoin

^EdgeOfACoin* · Today 06:07

What secondary evidence is there that Jesus existed? As far as I know, there are no contemporary Roman records, not Egyptian. Both were inveterate recorders of events.

There's an interesting piece about the historicity (or otherwise) of Jesus here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5x4SUZZrHuKcjVBMmR6THZiV1E/view

Jesus Fact or Fiction.pdf

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5x4SUZZrHuKcjVBMmR6THZiV1E/view?resourcekey=0-fyrabtKL7GJX0M3U70Sc7A

TheCentreSlide · 23/03/2023 11:58

TheGreatATuin · 22/03/2023 08:05

He's a staunch atheist and a scientist. He was always going to have difficulty just accepting the gendered souls woo and the pseudoscience that's coming out of the trans movement.
I'd love to see him follow up The God Delusion with The Gender Delusion. Not only would it be a fascinating read, but he'd make a mint.

This! Do it Dawkins!

TheBiologyStupid · 23/03/2023 12:13

maranella · 23/03/2023 07:46

What is “errant” nonsense? Is it worse than arrant nonsense?!

What are you talking about? The word is 'errant', not 'arrant'. Google it or look it up in a dictionary if you don't believe me.

Arrant is a recognised variant spelling: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/arrant

arrant - Wiktionary

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/arrant

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/03/2023 12:19

Your assertion that “there is some proof that sex is a spectrum” does not, and never will be, applied to mammals.

Actually, sex is binary in all animals, and no animals change sex.

A tiny number of birds, reptiles, amphibians and fish are hermaphrodites, meaning that they are both sexes at once. Some of them show the sexual characteristics of both sexes at the same time, others - famously including sodding clownfish - show them in sequence. But they have the chromosomes of both sexes from the moment of conception and this never changes. And they are not a 3rd sex: they are both the normal two sexes.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/03/2023 12:24

The starting assumption of a "real historical Jesus" appears to take the Bible as a credible source, which is hotly debatable

If you are an atheist, it's also of no real relevance whether there was a historical Jesus or not. Whether or not there was a man to whom various myths were later attributed, if you are an atheist, you do not believe in his divinity. Therefore his existence or otherwise doesn't make Christianity any more or less true. I imagine that Dawkins is dismissive of the argument because it's irrelevant from his point of view.

Sunnava · 23/03/2023 12:29

Oh, I’m in utter agreement.

Sunnava · 23/03/2023 12:29

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/03/2023 12:19

Your assertion that “there is some proof that sex is a spectrum” does not, and never will be, applied to mammals.

Actually, sex is binary in all animals, and no animals change sex.

A tiny number of birds, reptiles, amphibians and fish are hermaphrodites, meaning that they are both sexes at once. Some of them show the sexual characteristics of both sexes at the same time, others - famously including sodding clownfish - show them in sequence. But they have the chromosomes of both sexes from the moment of conception and this never changes. And they are not a 3rd sex: they are both the normal two sexes.

Sorry — referring to this post! ^

ErrolTheDragon · 23/03/2023 12:38

Wanderingowl · 22/03/2023 08:22

I saw a response on Twitter saying he's an evolutionary biologist so should stay in his lane as he doesn't understand gender. 😜

Hah.
This is like saying an astronomer shouldn't criticise astrology.
(Same goes for scientists daring to take on religions)

RosaBonheur · 23/03/2023 12:44

PorcelinaV · 23/03/2023 10:23

Dawkins doesn't need to be an expert on everything Christian theology, but he does need to be competent when he discusses arguments for / against the existence of God.

I think it's doubtful that he had the knowledge to be writing on philosophy.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/dawkins-vs-aquinas-fail

The thing is though, saying that someone needs to have read widely on a certain subject to be able to criticise it or dismiss it as rubbish does put up unreasonable barriers to criticising or dismissing certain things.

Take Christians vs atheists, for example. The Bible will take you a long, long time to read, but even if you take the Bible out of the equation, there is much, much more Christian literature than atheist literature. How far back do you want people to go? Because once Christianity became the dominant religion in Europe, for hundreds of years there were educated men writing about theology. In the early middle ages, literacy was generally confined to the priesthood, and everything was written in Latin. Bede, who wrote the Ecclesiastical History of the English people around 700 years after the birth and death of Jesus, was considered one of the first scholars to actually write in English, and he was a monk himself. Even in much later centuries, when people were writing in more or less the English of the people and scholarship wasn't necessarily confined to men of the cloth, for a long time writing atheist literature would have been dangerous. Even if you didn't believe in God, actually saying that, or putting it in writing, would be more than your life was worth.

So if all a Christian has to do to criticise Richard Dawkins is read "The God Delusion", which most reasonably quick readers could do in a day, but in order to talk authoritatively about theology Richard Dawkins has to have read everything ever written on the subject, that's a much, much greater hurdle for Richard Dawkins to get over than it is for the Christian.

Now back to gender ideology. No, I haven't read all, or even much, of what Judith Butler, or other self-styled "trans inclusive feminists" have written. The little I have read was arrant/errant nonsense, as Richard Dawkins would say.

All I know is that I don't identify with the concept of "gender" myself, I don't believe I have a gender identity, much less that I share one with trans women, and so for me, every argument in favour of trans women being classed as women and allowed to access women's spaces, when properly deconstructed, comes down to "because it's what they want, and if you don't accept that you're a horrible TERF".

There is no book in the world that is going to convince me that I share any kind of identity with, say, Lia Thomas, or even that if I did, our shared identity would be a good argument for us both being eligible to compete in the same sporting categories. There is no book in the world that is going to convince me that toilets are supposed to match our gender identities and not our sexed bodies. The fact that toilets are only divided into men and women, and not "non binary" or any of the other numerous gender identities that apparently exist, and that men's toilets have urinals for people with penises who pee standing up, whereas women's toilets have sanitary bins for people who menstruate, is good enough for me.

So why would I waste my time reading these books, when the people who wrote them aren't prepared to listen to the other side of the debate anyway? Have they all read Kathleen Stock and Helen Joyce? No, didn't think so.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/03/2023 12:59

So if all a Christian has to do to criticise Richard Dawkins is read "The God Delusion", which most reasonably quick readers could do in a day, but in order to talk authoritatively about theology Richard Dawkins has to have read everything ever written on the subject, that's a much, much greater hurdle for Richard Dawkins to get over than it is for the Christian

Good point. Also, many of the objections to Dawkins seem to be that he is not au fait with current theological thinking. He is arguing against things that most Christians no longer actually believe. But in the past, Christinaity held those now apparently outdated ideas to be the revealed word of god. It has not, with a few exceptions, acknowledged having been in error in the past. So it's perfectly reasonable for Dawkins to use those older beliefs in his arguments.

Where I do think Christians have every right to be frustrated with Dawkins is his sneering tone. It is impossible to know for certain whether or not there is a god. None of us knows where the energy that became the Big Bang originated. It is hypocritical of Dawkins to sneer at Christians for holding one set of beliefs that cannot be substantiated (at least in this life), when his own atheism is equally impossible to substantiate.

ErrolTheDragon · 23/03/2023 13:07

It is hypocritical of Dawkins to sneer at Christians for holding one set of beliefs that cannot be substantiated (at least in this life), when his own atheism is equally impossible to substantiate.

I'm not at all sure that's what he does - I thought he put his atheism (or maybe even agnosticism) as a strong probability based on the evidence.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/03/2023 13:17

ErrolTheDragon · 23/03/2023 13:07

It is hypocritical of Dawkins to sneer at Christians for holding one set of beliefs that cannot be substantiated (at least in this life), when his own atheism is equally impossible to substantiate.

I'm not at all sure that's what he does - I thought he put his atheism (or maybe even agnosticism) as a strong probability based on the evidence.

I think you're right that he does acknowledge that atheism is a belief system that cannot be substantiated, but that doesn't stop him from sometimes adopting a sneering or at least patronising tone towards religious people. Seen more in his documentaries than his books, if I remember rightly (it's been a while since I read them).

I think part of the problem is that he is not always sure whether he is making/writing a polemic or trying forensically to dismantle an argument, so he comes in somewhere in the middle, which doesn't alway work. A polemic works for a rant about the harms that religion has done, but not if you are really trying to dissect why people hold religious beliefs.

TheBiologyStupid · 23/03/2023 13:17

In the words of Stephen Roberts to a Christian:

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

RosaBonheur · 23/03/2023 13:20

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/03/2023 12:59

So if all a Christian has to do to criticise Richard Dawkins is read "The God Delusion", which most reasonably quick readers could do in a day, but in order to talk authoritatively about theology Richard Dawkins has to have read everything ever written on the subject, that's a much, much greater hurdle for Richard Dawkins to get over than it is for the Christian

Good point. Also, many of the objections to Dawkins seem to be that he is not au fait with current theological thinking. He is arguing against things that most Christians no longer actually believe. But in the past, Christinaity held those now apparently outdated ideas to be the revealed word of god. It has not, with a few exceptions, acknowledged having been in error in the past. So it's perfectly reasonable for Dawkins to use those older beliefs in his arguments.

Where I do think Christians have every right to be frustrated with Dawkins is his sneering tone. It is impossible to know for certain whether or not there is a god. None of us knows where the energy that became the Big Bang originated. It is hypocritical of Dawkins to sneer at Christians for holding one set of beliefs that cannot be substantiated (at least in this life), when his own atheism is equally impossible to substantiate.

Well this is why I am more open to the idea that God might actually exist than I am to gender ideology.

Without claiming to be massively well-read on the subject, because I'm not, I understand more or less what Christians believe. I went to Catholic school. I am baptised as an Anglican. I got married in church. I know the main stories in the Bible, the creation, the birth of Jesus, the miracles, the crucifixion etc. I think some aspects of Christian teaching are good and valuable and common sense, whether you believe in Jesus or not, such as "love thy neighbour" and the Good Samaritan, and other aspects are hugely damaging and problematic, e.g. its teachings about homosexuality.

I have a pretty clear idea about what Christians think God actually is, and why all of this stuff is important to them. What I don't have is any proof that God actually exists. But I also don't have any proof that God doesn't exist. And that's why I keep a tiny part of my mind open to the possibility that one day I might see some proof that God does exist, and change my mind.

When it comes to gender, not only do I not understand what the proponents of gender ideology believe, I don't think they understand it either. If they truly understood what they believe, they would be able to explain it in at least basic terms, the way Christians can. But everything they say disintegrates with even the most basic questioning.

What actually is a gender identity, and in what sense do all people who call themselves women share the same identity? What are the features of this identity that we supposedly share? What do you think is assigned at birth? Because sex is determined way before birth, and yet all of the things which seem to make up "gender", such as norms, behaviours, expectations and stereotypes come much later. The only difference between my baby son and my baby daughter is that my baby son was more likely to pee in his own face whilst on the changing table.

When someone can't answer even the most basic questions about what they believe without shouting "bigot!" and "no debate!" and "you're endangering the lives of trans people!" at you, you have to conclude that they don't actually understand it themselves. If they did, they would be able to explain it.

I don't have any proof that God doesn't exist. I do have proof that not everyone has a gender identity; I exist, and I don't have a gender identity. And I have a strong suspicion that gender identity isn't actually real, based on the fact that nobody who believes they have one can actually explain what one is or describe theirs.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/03/2023 13:35

And I have a strong suspicion that gender identity isn't actually real, based on the fact that nobody who believes they have one can actually explain what one is or describe theirs

It's a bit like the Holy Ghost 😉

SinnerBoy · 23/03/2023 13:53

All the criticism of Dawkins and his tome seems to have missed what led him to write it:

Thousands of death threats from loving, forgiving Christians.

PorcelinaV · 23/03/2023 14:18

SinnerBoy · 23/03/2023 13:53

All the criticism of Dawkins and his tome seems to have missed what led him to write it:

Thousands of death threats from loving, forgiving Christians.

But that wouldn't justify Dawkins being incompetent with his philosophical argument when it's a major part of the book.

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PorcelinaV · 23/03/2023 14:29

The thing is though, saying that someone needs to have read widely on a certain subject to be able to criticise it or dismiss it as rubbish does put up unreasonable barriers to criticising or dismissing certain things.

As I said, Dawkins doesn't need to be an expert on the whole of Christian* *theology.

However, if he comments on arguments for / against the existence of God, he needs to know enough and be skilled enough to give good criticism and produce a good argument of his own.

If you write a book making claims about philosophy then it's going to be judged on the strength of that.

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SinnerBoy · 23/03/2023 14:40

I freely admit to knowing the square root of fuck all about philosophy, so I'll refrain from commenting on that.