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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

‘Identifying as a woman’ is self-defeating, so instead this leads to...

120 replies

Shelefttheweb · 20/03/2023 09:57

I saw a tweet the other days where a transwomen was miffed when another transwoman was in the ladies toilets as it ‘spoilt the point’. So thinking where this all ultimately leads to:

  • All spaces mixed sex
  • Sex-based terms and pronouns meaningless with children brought up on it not even realising it once had a sex based meaning
  • Men’s sport and other men’s sports
  • Health information referring to what? Euphemisms? Sex-based body part names are a no no
  • Fetishes losing their allure as no element of being forbidden or crossing boundaries so what next?

what else?

OP posts:
WhereYouLeftIt · 20/03/2023 16:45

"I saw a tweet the other days where a transwomen was miffed when another transwoman was in the ladies toilets as it ‘spoilt the point’."

That reminded me of a cartoonist on Twitter, Tatsuya Ishida. They release a new 'episode' most days, these are from the 'Filters' storyline. There's a lot more of them, but these are the ones that 'spoilt the point' brought to mind. Enjoy!

‘Identifying as a woman’ is self-defeating, so instead this leads to...
‘Identifying as a woman’ is self-defeating, so instead this leads to...
‘Identifying as a woman’ is self-defeating, so instead this leads to...
DuckDuckNo · 20/03/2023 16:53

MorningPlatypus · 20/03/2023 10:15

I remember reading about a transwoman at a workplace made a formal complaint, because his female colleagues chose to use the disabled loo.

Traducing women's spaces boundaries is part of the thrill.

I remember a trans woman who asked for legal advice to gain access to the women's changing room. And then when he was successful, he asked for more advice because he wanted to try to force the women back in there as they had all changed into private changing rooms.

turbonerd · 20/03/2023 16:55

unless first cousins have married first cousins.

argh, unless first cousins have children together. Married or not!

Anyway, back on topic: the boys around here never accepted the trans boys. Never. (Ages 10-16).

most of the transboys (if not all) have detransitioned. Luckily hormones and surgery was not involved. Maybe binders, but not more.

ErrolTheDragon · 20/03/2023 16:58

Fetishes losing their allure as no element of being forbidden or crossing boundaries so what next?

‘Identifying as a woman’ is self-defeating, so instead this leads to...
nepeta · 20/03/2023 18:08

What does 'to identify as' really mean? I could identify as a knowledgeable bird-fancier to my friends as I have begun to learn more about them for the last couple of years, but I would never go to expert bird-fanciers' groups and tell them that I am someone on their level of knowledge when I am not.

They would see through my presumed identity as not matching facts. My friends know that I'm actually not a bird-fancier, but now interested in and learning about them, so they interpret my identity claim more kindly, as they would interpret most similar claims which don't damage others or me kindly.

The gender identity ideology if it included being an expert bird-fancier as a gender would argue that everyone in the whole world should take my bird-fancier self-identity as a fact, or at least pretend to take it as a fact.

This is what they are doing for gender identities, and because most people do know this difference in how we treat 'identity' in different contexts, they try to make it impossibly punitive not to obey them.

So outside circles of friends, 'identity', for it to have relevance, must have some external verification. If you identify as a Norwegian, then you should know quite a bit about Norway, you should have lived there or if not that, then to have had at least one Norwegian parent.

And clearly we can't identify as neurosurgeons if we have no qualifications in that field, because the consequences for others are so severe.

If I apply this test (existence of facts to support the identities) to gender identities most of them fail it right away, and only a handful is left for closer scrutiny. (Note that this is not about replacing sex with gender identity, but about when to even take someone's assertion of an identity at all seriously, as a starting point to be interrogated further.)

RosaBonheur · 20/03/2023 18:13

Quite simply, identifying as something means you are not that thing but want everyone else to pretend you are.

BluebellBlueballs · 20/03/2023 18:20

Woke will eat itself.

nepeta · 20/03/2023 18:22

RosaBonheur · 20/03/2023 18:13

Quite simply, identifying as something means you are not that thing but want everyone else to pretend you are.

There's more to this, I believe. An Afghan charity site began one of its posts by stating that "Afghanistan is one of the most difficult countries in which to identify as a woman."

The context makes it clear that they meant "being a woman". So in order for those who want to identify as something they are not, everyone who actually IS that thing must also call being that thing 'identifying as' that thing. Otherwise it doesn't work.

And that's why we are forced to be 'cis'.

CatSpeakForDummies · 20/03/2023 18:26

"And is the school saying "we won't put these children in with actual boys FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY"????"

Unfortunately I'm not privy to how the school are responding, just the parents trying to get people onboard with "how would you feel if they allocated room by skin colour?!?!" type of arguments. The WA group is a bit tumbleweed when they are ranting though, so the general mood is in agreement that the school found a good solution.

KalimbaMoon · 20/03/2023 18:30

nepeta · 20/03/2023 18:22

There's more to this, I believe. An Afghan charity site began one of its posts by stating that "Afghanistan is one of the most difficult countries in which to identify as a woman."

The context makes it clear that they meant "being a woman". So in order for those who want to identify as something they are not, everyone who actually IS that thing must also call being that thing 'identifying as' that thing. Otherwise it doesn't work.

And that's why we are forced to be 'cis'.

Wow. That is so insulting to Afghan women and the terrible struggle they are going through. You’d think an Afghan charity would appreciate that those women are living with the harsh reality of sex-based oppression. I don’t think the Taliban need to ask for pronouns.

bellac11 · 20/03/2023 18:33

Amazing how angry people get at the thought of identifying as a different ethnicity or race as the one you appear to be (as others have said race has no such lines and demarcations)

But its just shrugged off in society that men can identify as women when biology is factual and clear cut, you're either one or the other and tests can prove which one

RosaBonheur · 20/03/2023 19:03

nepeta · 20/03/2023 18:22

There's more to this, I believe. An Afghan charity site began one of its posts by stating that "Afghanistan is one of the most difficult countries in which to identify as a woman."

The context makes it clear that they meant "being a woman". So in order for those who want to identify as something they are not, everyone who actually IS that thing must also call being that thing 'identifying as' that thing. Otherwise it doesn't work.

And that's why we are forced to be 'cis'.

They really need to give their heads a wobble.

Girls and women aren't oppressed in Afghanistan because of how they identify.

Would the Taliban start treating them like humans if they all decided to identify as men? No, of course not.

turbonerd · 20/03/2023 19:19

nepeta · 20/03/2023 18:08

What does 'to identify as' really mean? I could identify as a knowledgeable bird-fancier to my friends as I have begun to learn more about them for the last couple of years, but I would never go to expert bird-fanciers' groups and tell them that I am someone on their level of knowledge when I am not.

They would see through my presumed identity as not matching facts. My friends know that I'm actually not a bird-fancier, but now interested in and learning about them, so they interpret my identity claim more kindly, as they would interpret most similar claims which don't damage others or me kindly.

The gender identity ideology if it included being an expert bird-fancier as a gender would argue that everyone in the whole world should take my bird-fancier self-identity as a fact, or at least pretend to take it as a fact.

This is what they are doing for gender identities, and because most people do know this difference in how we treat 'identity' in different contexts, they try to make it impossibly punitive not to obey them.

So outside circles of friends, 'identity', for it to have relevance, must have some external verification. If you identify as a Norwegian, then you should know quite a bit about Norway, you should have lived there or if not that, then to have had at least one Norwegian parent.

And clearly we can't identify as neurosurgeons if we have no qualifications in that field, because the consequences for others are so severe.

If I apply this test (existence of facts to support the identities) to gender identities most of them fail it right away, and only a handful is left for closer scrutiny. (Note that this is not about replacing sex with gender identity, but about when to even take someone's assertion of an identity at all seriously, as a starting point to be interrogated further.)

I agree with most of what you write, but when it comes to nationality (you used the example Norwegian) it is slightly different.

My children were not born or raised in the country of their nationality and they feel no affinity with the country of their nationality. But, they ARE that nationality whether they like it or not, because the rules in the country they were born states that my children must follow MY nationality as I was not married to their father (and he was not a national of the country they were born in either).
Also, to gain a nationality that is not automatically bestowed upon you, you actually have to pass a test. Lots of weird and random questions and you still have to swear your allegiance, afaik.

😊 just to be a pedantic arse.

turbonerd · 20/03/2023 19:20

Then onto the atrocious way to describe the plight of girls and women as something they identify into…
Are these people on glue?

turbonerd · 20/03/2023 19:21

The plight of Afghan girls and women

Grammarnut · 20/03/2023 19:57

turbonerd · 20/03/2023 16:55

unless first cousins have married first cousins.

argh, unless first cousins have children together. Married or not!

Anyway, back on topic: the boys around here never accepted the trans boys. Never. (Ages 10-16).

most of the transboys (if not all) have detransitioned. Luckily hormones and surgery was not involved. Maybe binders, but not more.

Unless done generationally, there is no problem marrying a first cousin - it is not restricted in the consanguinity rules on marriage. To keep marrying first cousins generation after generation is a bad, bad idea, however.

Fizzadora · 20/03/2023 20:23

CatSpeakForDummies · 20/03/2023 10:19

This is happening with our school residential- all the trans boys have been put together and they are all mortally offended at not being in with the actual boys. Watching the parents trying to formulate a complaint in a way that is still "be kind" is actually wonderful, in all it's ridiculousness.

Where are the trans girls (is.boys) then. Have they been put in with the girls?

turbonerd · 20/03/2023 20:36

Grammarnut · 20/03/2023 19:57

Unless done generationally, there is no problem marrying a first cousin - it is not restricted in the consanguinity rules on marriage. To keep marrying first cousins generation after generation is a bad, bad idea, however.

No, I know. But then you’ll have a slightly different number of great/great/great grandparents.

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 20/03/2023 21:16

First cousin marriages are very common in some societies and although there is slightly higher incidence of some genetic diseases they are not completely disastrous. Irish Travellers are one example but it's a thing for some South Asians as well.

HootyMcBooby76 · 20/03/2023 22:11

DuckDuckNo · 20/03/2023 16:53

I remember a trans woman who asked for legal advice to gain access to the women's changing room. And then when he was successful, he asked for more advice because he wanted to try to force the women back in there as they had all changed into private changing rooms.

Yes I remember this too. Proof that it's never been about the space, the room, or anything other than the actual women in that space and their unquestioning acceptance of the TW as a "woman".

The reason TW were "miffed" that other TW were in the toilet and not actual women, is that even THEY know TW are not women.
They know in every way.
AND if they can't accept OTHER TW as women then how are WE supposed to accept them as women?

JarByTheDoor · 20/03/2023 22:23

ZombieMumEB · 20/03/2023 11:36

These days you don't even need to self harm - I am seeing more and more posts online about people who "identify" as disabled.

About 6ish years ago, it was very common for people to say they were quirky, possibly on the autism spectrum - yet they had no formal diagnosis. They jumped on the bandwagon, as those with actual ASD were raising awareness and finally getting the support they needed.

I knew so many people IRL or online, who adopted the quirky ASD (non) diagnosis. Now it's gone out of fashion, these people no longer identify as ASD. They are now queer. Who knows what they will self-identify as in the future.

Ugh. I've been cursed to have fashionable disorders for some reason. The problems that can be caused by people identifying into them are in some ways quite different to the problems of "gender" self-ID, but I think they do have some similarities (TL;DR at foot of post).

This is probably going to sound judgemental as fuck to some of those who haven't experienced people identifying into problems they themselves have experience of, and to those who prefer to always accept this kind of identifying-in and self-diagnosis, but if someone finds something in here offensive, please know that the people I'm referring to are probably not the people you're taking offense on behalf of.

I have current medical diagnoses of:

— ASD: this is not only apparently considered by TikTok teens (or young people using whatever they're on instead of Tumblr now) to be a diagnosis which can be legitimately identified into , but also by most online autistic communities at the moment, for complex reasons.

(I'm not going to go into the debate about the rearrangement of autism into a single category and the possible effects of that, as it's outside the scope of my already extremely long post, except to say this: here I'm mostly talking about the possible impacts of self-IDers and self-dxers on autistic people whose autism presents like mine — i.e. not always easy for the layperson to recognise as being the result of a neurodevelopmental disability — because that's the only situation I have experience of, not because I think there's no effect on other autistic people.)

I do understand that competent assessment can be difficult or sometimes impossible to obtain, be very expensive, involve long waits and intrusive or upsetting processes, or result in a diagnosis that once official could potentially affect your future options, and that if you don't have access to clinicians with the right kind of expertise, your ASD may be missed. But without objective professional opinion I don't think anyone should be outright saying they are autistic.

It's a medical diagnosis of a neurodevelopmental disorder, one which for some people can result in profound disability and intensive lifelong care needs, and saying you have ASD or are autistic should mean that you've been given that diagnosis professionally IMO.

It's especially irritating when those who are not only self-IDing, but also wouldn't want assessment if offered (and may even believe ASD shouldn't be in the category of "things that can be diagnosed by a professional"), start banging on about how it's not a disability, which the public may take to mean that people like me don't need the little help we get.

In social contexts it's not necessary to lay claim to the actual diagnosis (and it seems kinda dishonest in medical, work or official contexts) — you don't tend to see people being not taken seriously, or not welcomed into the autistic community, when they've been honest and said they don't [yet] have a diagnosis but believe/suspect/are sure they're autistic. We're catching up on several generations of undiagnosed autistics going by current diagnostic criteria; there must be millions out there, so it makes sense to accept and welcome undiagnosed people who suspect they are autistic. I was left undiagnosed until my late 20s, because 15 years earlier, when medical attitudes were only just beginning to change, an old-fashioned psychiatrist blocked my proposed assessment because I understood irony.

Unfortunately, since many autistic people recognise these diagnostic difficulties and want to be welcoming and helpful to those without diagnoses, and because many autistic people do find the neurodiversity and demedicalisation paradigms attractive, autistic groups are wide open to all self-IDers and self-diagnosers, particularly online (in IRL groups I see it less). Alongside those with diagnoses and those who simply happen to be currently undiagnosed, there have been increasing numbers of people who don't have diagnoses and TBH don't really seem to fit, who have swamped some online spaces, and it's changed the atmosphere and focus IMO. Some groups will, for example, jump heavily on any social faux pas around this whole area (and other identity areas), which is… not ideal. I don't use online autistic spaces any more — most stopped feeling like familiar places.

And it's not only that there's a lot of self-ID and self-diagnosing (almost two distinct groups, the former more likely to be extremist neurodiversity and demedicalisation advocates who may believe ASD is not a disability); ASD is also a popular one to armchair-diagnose in others. That can be even more irritating, especially when the diagnosee seems indistinguishable from someone just being an arsehole, or is exhibiting behaviour within the normal range, or when it just seems like those two people are not a good combo.

Neither those jumping to autism as an explanation of behaviour they don't like when they're not qualified to diagnose (and much about the situation doesn't seem to fit well anyway), nor those self-IDing without much evidence and demanding special treatment and/or to be treated as an autism spokesperson, are doing much for public perception of autistic people IMO.

I'm not convinced identifying as autistic has gone out of fashion as such, but it's losing ground online to:

— ADHD: some similar self-diagnosis and self-ID issues to ASD, and a similar set of coexisting problems around the genuine large numbers of undiagnosed people who would meet criteria if assessed. I think its popularity as a (sometimes spurious, usually overconfident) self-diagnosis-stated-as-fact has been strongly ramping up over the last year or two, alongside a strong awareness campaign about adult ADHD.

The self-diagnosis of ADHD seems, even more than ASD, to be taking on a flavour of "thing that people sometimes outright say they have despite having no diagnosis, but often without a lot of the struggles that people with the diagnosis contend with, or that appear to only pop up when convenient". There also seems to be a lower threshold of difference/struggling with life stuff for people to start feeling comfortable outright claiming ADHD as fact, compared to ASD.

Again, I have no problem with people saying they suspect or believe they have ADHD, saying they find the tools and techniques useful, or joining communities (assuming they frame it something like "my probable ADHD" or whatever), as this is another one that I was adult-diagnosed with, so I can empathize with that situation.

— Bipolar disorder: this suffers the multiple-whammy of, firstly, popular choice for self-diagnosis (often seemingly dubiously — though self-ID per se happens less, as it's rarely argued to be as much of an "identity" thing as ASD) and occasional exculpatory get-out clause, secondly, insult or slur, thirdly, occasional target for armchair diagnosis, and lastly, a pre-existing huge public misunderstanding of what it actually entails.

Like with ASD and ADHD, these things perpetuate real public confusion about what it might mean for someone (and the people around them) if they have this diagnosis, and they undermine public perception of the diagnosis, how serious or genuine a problem it is, and whether someone who says they have it is likely to genuinely be someone with a serious psychotic/mood disorder. I've never come across anyone with diagnosed bipolar disorder in the UK whose life wasn't very seriously impacted by it, and can't think of any who expected to be able to act how they liked and use their diagnosis as an excuse.

Of course, like ASD and ADHD, there are a lot of people out there who will later come to have a diagnosis of bipolar disorder that fits their symptoms but who aren't yet diagnosed, and a lot who remain misdiagnosed all their lives. Bipolar UK give an average of 9½ years between first presenting to a doctor with bipolar disorder symptoms, and receiving a bipolar disorder diagnosis, with an average of 3½ misdiagnoses, adding that some research suggests over half those in the UK with bipolar disorder are undiagnosed.

So I can see that there will naturally be lots of people out there without a diagnosis who (correctly) suspect or believe they have it, but a lot of the self-diagnosis feels incredibly dodgy and the things some self-diagnosed "bipolar" people say about their "bipolar" seem to be based on misconceptions, inability to objectively see oneself, lack of professional ability to interpret criteria or of experience seeing what bipolar disorder looks like, or occasionally (sorry) attention-seeking or self-serving excuses. By no means all of them, of course; many will have other mental illnesses that are less well-known, or which are more… undesirable, for want of a better word.

If you have bipolar disorder or suspect you do, this means that looking for support online from a community of people dealing with similar psychiatric issues to you is more difficult, as there are so many people stating they have bipolar disorder whose experiences don't really fit, though again, I've not found this to (yet) be the case in real-world support groups.

— Coeliac disease: okay, people don't usually self-diagnose with or self-identify as this by name, or believe themselves to actually have coeliac disease — and there's also the non-coeliac gluten sensitivity thing to consider, which is debated but which I don't want to touch here — but there was also a massive surge in gluten-free diets being promoted for other reasons, and people deciding it might be a good idea to try avoiding gluten to lose weight or for nebulous indeterminate health reasons or because other people were doing it, which is obviously entirely their choice to make, and of course they weren't trying to muscle in on a medical diagnosis. But I think maybe gluten-free becoming fashionable was a bit of a double-edged sword for coeliacs.

Great in that it led to a much wider range of gluten-free foods being available than would be economic to supply for coeliacs alone (though I think the trendiness is definitely on the wane, and GF seems to be having to shuffle up for plant-based).

Not so good in that, for example, for most of those avoiding gluten, it didn't in reality matter if there was a bit of gluten in their food, so all kinds of things (e.g. cakes in a cafe sharing a cake-slice with gluteny cakes) started to get labelled as gluten-free, which weren't, but would sell well; people saw others on "gluten-free" diets who didn't mind cross-contamination, and might well assume that that must be fine for other gluten-free people too; or people heard about those on GF diets sometimes doing things like "cheating" on pudding after insisting on an arduously-prepared cross-contamination-free gluten-free main, and might start to feel avoiding cross-contamination for those requesting gluten-free food was a waste of extra effort.

Basically, I think the words "gluten free" became a bit of a joke, because they got attached to a kind of stereotype of a dietary fashion-follower who enjoys kicking up a fuss and getting attention for their fad health kicks. There were times over the past few years where the topic of a person asking for gluten-free food was the target of endless mocking jokes — a person playing at having dietary restrictions, getting all the "benefits" of feeling special and getting attention [shudder argh] but without going through real deficiency disorders, social exclusion, gastrointestinal distress, or lack of choice on extra restrictions and costs. The jokes weren't aimed at coeliacs, but I still sometimes feel self-conscious even mentioning gluten 🤣

Probably very few of the non-coeliac (and non-NCGS) gluten-avoiders were, or are, anything like attention-seeking pisstakers — GF became such a big market that anyone like that must've been quite a small minority. I'm sure lots were just trying something out, or for some reason feel/felt more comfortable with not eating large amounts of gluten.

— Migraine: this is a slightly petty one. People seem to have been calling their non-migraine headaches migraines to communicate severity forever. But severe headaches aren't necessarily migraines, and migraines aren't necessarily severe (or even painful at all). And not all migraine headaches feel like you'd think migraine headaches would feel.

I don't know that this is particularly harmful, but it is a bit annoying sometimes Grin

To me, the potential similarities to cross-sex identification seem to be:

  • entering spaces that weren't intended for you, thereby changing them so they no longer meet the original group's needs, and making people feel unable to specify
  • amplifying inaccurate stereotypes about the group you're identifying into
  • using resources set aside for the benefit of those who are affected by issues linked to their membership of that group
  • general public confusion about what being a member of that group actually means and what the criteria are
  • expanding the group to include people who don't experience certain core features, meaning that discriminating against that feature is no longer seen as discriminating against the group, and meaning that those who are able to succeed at x in part because they lack that feature are inauthentically held up as examples of members of that group succeeding at x
  • there could be lots of different reasons someone identifies into a group, and you don't need to be intending to cause harm to the group you're identifying into in order to be causing harm
  • probably lots of others I've missed.

(My apologies for the length of this post; when I don't sleep at all and then take stimulants, I get way more verbose than usual and also find it much harder than usual to edit down. I tried, I swear…)

spirit20 · 20/03/2023 22:27

Backstreets · 20/03/2023 10:25

Haha, amazing!

You won't catch me defending teen boys on the regular but they 100% deserve privacy and dignity, too. I can imagine for a lot of boys going through puberty it's mortifying enough changing in front of others as it is, imagine doing it in front of a cohort of "trans boys".

Exactly this. We had a trans boy on a school trip to Spain last summer who kicked up a major fuss when told they wouldn't be allowed share a room with boys. The entire argument was all about what would make that person feel comfortable and no recognition of the 2-4 other people who would be incredibly uncomfortable as a result.

Datdamndamp · 20/03/2023 22:43

IcakethereforeIam · 20/03/2023 11:56

I was thinking of a few years ago when people were self diagnosing as being gluten/lactose/whatever intolerant/allergic. Which must have been a pain for anyone trying to cater for them. It had an upside though of massively widening the choice of suitable foods for genuine sufferers. The improvements in food labelling and awareness will also have been brilliant for those with genuine needs, possibly sometimes lifesaving.

I'd like to think that this latest fashion would also help to improve provision for people with genuine needs. Unfortunately, I think it's more likely that what limited provision there already is will be swamped by people with no real need for it. Perhaps with a side order of an increase in skepticism as to whether or not you are actually a sufferer.

I suspect there was an element of people saying they are gluten intolerant because the reality, " it makes me fart loads", might be unprofessional in a work setting.

I can clear an office in the afternoon if I have a sandwich at lunch but not imagining for a second that's on a par with bring a coeliac. 😁

SinnerBoy · 21/03/2023 06:09

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · Yesterday 15:32

Not sure if you are white or just a race traitor, but wow!

Why are you using a white supremacist trope? It means a white person who takes a partner of another ethnic background.

RosaBonheur · 21/03/2023 07:35

spirit20 · 20/03/2023 22:27

Exactly this. We had a trans boy on a school trip to Spain last summer who kicked up a major fuss when told they wouldn't be allowed share a room with boys. The entire argument was all about what would make that person feel comfortable and no recognition of the 2-4 other people who would be incredibly uncomfortable as a result.

That's par for the course in this debate.

People in positions of power confidently saying "trans women are women and should be allowed to use the facilities where they feel safe and comfortable".

The idea that women - the female kind - should be allowed to feel safe and comfortable is not even entertained. Because not believing that humans can change sex is bigoted and bigots don't deserve to feel safe or comfortable.

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