R4 Sunday religious sex workers

[ExiledElsie]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbcradioo_fourfm?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Surprising section on Sunday on R4 about sex work. All about opportunities for extra income, how it interacts with religion.

PonyPatter44 · Today 20:00

^Crutcher · Today 19:44
Writing this cheapens the experience of actual victims. Whatever your view is of sex work, those engaging in it do so of their own free will.^

there may be some women going into sex work of their own free will, but the majority are trafficked and/ or addicted women, because they have minimal choice in the matter.

Agreed, and many may have been abused in their earlier life.

You're talking utter horse shit, love. I'm sure it's all very lovely in your world of Happy Hookers and empowered cam girls, but down at the sharp end it is NOT by choice.

Please don't misquote me. I didn't say anything about 'happy' hookers. On the contrary, I clearly wrote these are people making difficult choices. However, ultimately, they're doing it by choice.

Read this for a glimpse of reality. It does not include the religious element and the trans part is nit important for this discussion, but everyone who thinks sec work is work should read it. (I first saw it on another thread - thank you to who ever posted it.)

forthvalleyfeminists.com/dr-em-porn-culture-and-transgenderism/

@Crutcher I don't have the more detailed information to hand nor the will to go find it right now (my bad I know) but I hope somebody else will be along with it.

I believe that you're extremely wrong about the proportion of sex workers in the UK who are living in modern slavery. I don't deny that there are high class escorts who charge £££ and think of themselves as "empowered women" (quotation marks because I don't believe that sex work is ever consensual but that's a different point), but I believe that for every one of those there are several women who have either been manipulated into sex work by drugs/domestic abuse/other, or who have simply been trafficked to the UK for the purpose of sex work.

Nor do I agree that the majority of sex work in the UK is highly paid. There are plenty of women on the streets if you know the right postcodes who are offering £15 blow jobs.

Of course we will never know accurate figures because it's an illegal industry, and those who traffic women for sex aren't exactly declaring it on anybody's census. The high class escorts are willing to talk about how great and empowering it is, and those who are trafficked aren't, or are too afraid to give an accurate report of reality.

I clearly wrote these are people making difficult choices. However, ultimately, they're doing it by choice.

….. “ultimately”.

I am not a philosopher but I think there are important philosophical arguments regarding when a choice really is a choice and when is not.

I am not a philosopher but I think there are important philosophical arguments regarding when a choice really is a choice and when is not.

Nods loudly

If you believe that your life is in danger if you don't do something, is that free choice?

I didn't bring so called high class escorts into the equation at all. The vast majority of sws are in it because they need the money. They're poor, and without money they would starve.

This is where hard choices comes in. These poor women can either try to find low paying jobs (akin to what men in this position would do), or go for the relatively high paying sw, but which comes at a cost of higher risk of physical danger (and some would argue also soul destroying).

As I said, it's a hard choice, and one I'm thankful I don't need to make. But ultimately it is a choice. One only has to look at men who are poor, for whom sw isn't an option, to realise that other options of eking out a living (pittance) do exist.

"One only has to look at men who are poor, for whom sw isn't an option, to realise that other options of eking out a living (pittance) do exist."

Well, in many (not all before you strawman me) cases men who are both very poor and have addictions end up pimping out their girlfriends so same difference.
Apart from that many vulnerable (economically, socially) men do end up coerced into very low paid (as in illegal below minimum wage) hard labour jobs. These are better than sex work but still bad. Of course because they are hard labour women are less likely to have a choice to do it.**
Or men end up on the streets - walk through any city and see how many are out sleeping rough. There are women there too but less - its very dangerous for women on the streets. For women it can be a choice between being physically and sexually assaulted while living rough or be a prostitute and you are still being sexually assaulted.
Or men do sex work themselves (for other men). Or they do crime.

**And just as I am sure you agree that the coercion of men into these hard labour work gangs is wrong and the people doing it are exploitative and should be punished - so should the Johns and pimps exploiting women. Or are you the sort of person who pays 3 quid for a carwash by some miserable looking eastern European men and drives away feeling all smug that you got a good deal?

sorry that was for @Crutcher

“One only has to look at men who are poor, for whom sw isn't an option,”

How to say you don’t know anything about the subject without saying you don’t know anything about the subject…

20% of sex workers are men.

In addition, surveys show that the majority of sex workers have experienced coercion- usually a partner or relative. If you think that the ‘vast majority’ of sex workers go into it because they need the money, you are being naive. In over 50% of cases, it’s because someone else wants the money.

And just as I am sure you agree that the coercion of men into these hard labour work gangs is wrong and the people doing it are exploitative and should be punished - so should the Johns and pimps exploiting women.

Oh I completely agree with this. Anyone who coerces someone else into doing anything, be it regular work or sex work, should have the full force of the law come down on them.

I'm not for one moment pretending that most sws have the choice of either being eg a highly paid lawyer or an escort. It's quite clear in most cases we're talking about women who have limited choices. It would be either working long and hard hours in min wage or fewer and more flexible hours as a sw, but with the risks and caveats I mentioned above.

Still, the fact that poor people exist and by definition their choices are limited, is not the same as actual coercion.

The reality of life is that from the moment we are born, unless someone provides food, clothing and shelter, we wouldn't survive. That is just reality. It's a sad state of affairs when people have to make difficult choices in order to survive, but you can't compare that to real slaves.

The woman doing sw is no more coerced than the man cleaning the streets through the night in all weather conditions. Which is to say they're both doing shitty jobs* in order to survive. But there's no coercion involved.

*each one is shitty in their own way. Before you jump down my throat I'm not saying street cleaning is exactly like sw.

@Anactor

Methinks you've got your statistics wrong. It's probably more like 2%. I mean you can just go on to websites like vivastreet and count how many sws in any one are are women vs men.

The overwhelming majority of sws are women, and almost all buyers are men.

“The Sex Work Research Hub (a consortium of academics based at the Universities of Durham and Leeds) cited research which estimates that women comprise just over 80% of indoor sex workers, with more than 17% male and just over 2% transgender.”

That’s from the House of Commons Home Affairs Committee report on Prostitution, third report, 2016-17 session. The difference between thise figures and your ad hoc research on vivastreet is probably explained by male and female prostitutes having different types of punters and so preferring different websites.

The 20% figure was from a BBC article.

I am not talking about people working difficult jobs. I am talking about people are working jobs for less than minimum wage or which break safety rules- which is illegal. They are not necessarily coerced by force - in some cases they feel they don't have a choice/other alternatives or don't know that the employment situation is illegal. They are still being coerced. I don't think that this is exactly equivalent to sex work. But it is much closer than the examples you give.

Incidentally the "man cleaning the streets through the night in all weather conditions" should be earning a fair wage. uk.talent.com/salary?job=Street+Cleaner And the job is probably tough but I guess most of them would choose it over having anal sex with up to 20 men a day.

@Crutcher
It's a sad state of affairs when people have to make difficult choices in order to survive, but you can't compare that to real slaves.

Any comment on the modern slavery and trafficked women and children that I mentioned earlier? It's not just women who have poor life chances choosing to go into prostitution. Women and girls are trafficked for sex work. Women and girls are trafficked for and kept as modern day slaves for sex, here in the UK.

Julie Bindel: No such thing as a prostitute who is empowered (not referring to UK prostitutes but relevant all the same): www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-sex-worker-myth/

2021 UK report on Modern Slavery
www.gov.uk/government/publications/2021-uk-annual-report-on-modern-slavery/2021-uk-annual-report-on-modern-slavery-accessible-version

It makes reference to sexual exploitation commonly being reported among the second most common nationality of victims in the UK:

As in 2019, the most common nationality of potential victims in 2020 was UK nationals, accounting for 34% (3,560) of all referrals. The second most referred nationality was Albanian (15%; 1,638), followed by Vietnamese nationals (6%; 653). UK nationals were most often referred for criminal exploitation, whilst both Albanian and Vietnamese nationals were most referred for labour and criminal exploitation. Sexual exploitation was also commonly reported for Albanian nationals.[footnote 1]

Same report indicating that exploitation of victims of slavery on adult services websites is a problem:

Adult Service Websites
2.2.10. The NCA has continued work to engage with Adult Service Websites (ASWs) to raise industry standards and prevent offenders from exploiting victims on these platforms. This has included monitoring ASWs activity and examining how offenders abuse the internet to exploit their victims and promote mitigations that can be implemented by industry.
2.2.11. The Home Office has funded prevention work to raise awareness of the risks and signs of sexual exploitation among users of Adult Services Websites. The results and evaluation from this campaign are currently being reviewed in order to understand any impact.

Guardian article: Modern slavery in the UK - including sexual exploitation - rose alarmingly during lockdowns.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/04/lockdown-brings-alarming-rise-in-modern-slavery

Cases of sexual exploitation, which includes people held captive in brothels and coerced into prostitution, rose by a quarter in 2020 compared with the previous year. Nearly a quarter of cases involved children.

i Newspaper: huge increase in investigations into modern slavery. Biggest increase/most investigated? Sexual exploitation.

inews.co.uk/news/uk/human-trafficking-uk-cases-rise-sexual-exploitation-modern-slavery-561742

I think that it's helpful to think about the Johns.

If you believe (which I don't because I've known a lot of prostituted women and men) it about starvation level survival sex work.. and you choose to stick your dick in them, do you think that makes you a rapist, or not? Because if I thought someone was only having sex with me to avoid starvation (for them or their children) I wouldn't. Because I'd consider that sexual assault.

So all the talk of 'choice' is a bit silly. The men using these women are rapists.

When you think about the women as fully human, rather than as a commodity, using them when you're aware they are only 'consenting' because the alternative is so bleak and horrific, that makes them the worst kind of people.

@Anactor

I still think those numbers don't make sense. They just don't reflect the reality either on the street or on escorting websites.

@ThereIbledit

Just to be clear let me reiterate that I never said anything about empowerment or happy hookers. The entire thrust of my argument was that you can't conflate sws who do so by (albeit limited) choice, with actual victims of coercion, torture or rape. By doing so you just cheapen the experiences of bona fide victims.

There's plenty of research that shows the vast majority of sws are not trafficked against their will. While the possibility always exists (as it does with various other industries), it is in no way the norm.

If you believe (which I don't because I've known a lot of prostituted women and men) it about starvation level survival sex work.. and you choose to stick your dick in them, do you think that makes you a rapist, or not? Because if I thought someone was only having sex with me to avoid starvation (for them or their children) I wouldn't. Because I'd consider that sexual assault.

So all the talk of 'choice' is a bit silly. The men using these women are rapists.

I strongly disagree and actually find your use of the term very offensive to real rape victims. When a sw (usually a woman) puts their services out there and someone pays for it, you might find it immoral and reprehensible, but is is not rape.

Rape is sexual penetration by force, against someone's will. When that person has consented, even if they only consented because they got paid, it is most certainly not rape.

In fact, if we were to take your argument to its logical conclusion, any time anyone has any kind of ulterior motive for having sex, the other person is a rapist. For after all, the consent was contingent on getting some kind of benefit.

Furthermore, any work of any kind would have to be considered slavery. Especially low paid work. Because the only reason the person is working at the min wage job - or most jobs for that matter - is their need to put food on the table.

Clearly the oft repeated fallacy that consent can't be bought is just that, and absurd fallacy. Consent can absolutely be bought, and to conflate a distasteful transaction with non-consensual sex both cheapens and dilutes the term rape, and is very offensive to real rape victims.

Putting that aside, the bigger problem with your stance is that you are only pretending to care for the sws, when in reality it's just enforcing your distaste for sexual transactions on others.

Think about it, these women (or a men for that matter) are desperate for money, and the only way they can get it is by selling sexual services. Well what happens if you're successful in dissuading every potential customer from buying those services?

The sws starve, that's what happens. They might have been in desperate straits to have decided to sell sex in the first place. But once they've embarked on this course, they are only harmed by do gooders interfering and going after their customers.

The problem we have with numbers when it comes to trafficked sex "workers" is that on top of being part of an illegal industry they have no way of letting people know they are trafficked until they have escaped it. Whatever the supposed numbers are we can increase that by huge percentages and still possibly be well short of the true number. Also, akin to county lines they are moved around the country making it even harder to guess at true numbers.

It would be interesting to know how many prostituted women are reliant on/addicted to drugs and/or alcohol. My guess is the percentage is huge which, again, puts real consent/choice into question. I'm not suggesting that all women who are prostituted start out reliant/addicted but those who weren't are at high risk of ending up that way.

Yes it is rape. If it's have sex with you or starve, @Crutcher you are raping these women.

Force does not need to be involved for it to be rape. Coerced sex is rape. There's no meaningful consent where there's no meaningful choice.

@beastlyslumber

I'm not raping anyone so kindly don't accuse me of that shit.

As to coercion, well of course that's rape. Trafficked or coerced sws are being raped. I don't think anyone would say otherwise.

But poor people who choose to sell sexual services do not fall into the category. See previous post for the full argument.

Putting that aside, the bigger problem with your stance is that you are only pretending to care for the sws, when in reality it's just enforcing your distaste for sexual transactions on others.

ODFOD

I wrote a paragraph about my experience of knowing and caring about sex workers in dire circumstances. Then I realised that if you are a punter, you'd probably enjoy it, so I deleted it.

I have no 'distaste' for the women. I have nothing but for the punters.

Well said.

if every man who responds to an advert is a rapist, if the advertiser is hungry, is a rapist, then the world has gone mad. Where do you draw the line between tinder and adult work, cash or payment in kind, eg. dinner??

my view is that when do gooders make a prohibition of something - it only drives it underground - makes it less safe for those involved.

i knew a lot of escorts when i went through uni…. All single, no heavy drugs, no coercion, lots of lovely people who went on to have good careers and happy relationships after their degrees. My sample is the above and thankfully never known anyone trafficked. And therin is the issue - with surveys and how to get a representative sample. I’m certain they dont disclose their past widely.

Fucking hell, when did MN become punternet?