R4 Sunday religious sex workers

[ExiledElsie]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbcradioo_fourfm?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Surprising section on Sunday on R4 about sex work. All about opportunities for extra income, how it interacts with religion.

They would not take the risk...well...some would. The same guys who try to persuade the women to let them do it without a condom. Anything to heighten their sexual thrill!

But no, most are happy in their little bubble of "all these women do it because they really love sex and I'm special" they don't see themselves like those 20 other grubby men who have been in that same room with that same woman that day.

So no most wouldn't be prepared to take that much of a risk. After all they'd have to explain the bruises etc to the wife when they got home. And they can't risk getting locked in a room as they might be late home and the missus is doing a roast.

"Dude, please don't lock me up! The missus is doing a roast and she'll get really cross if I'm late!" This thought of this shouldn't have made me laugh as much as it did. Also, I shouldn't sort of want it to happen but there you go.

As read in another place

”if your feminism is making pimps happy, you are doing it wrong”

I just saw a woman on Twitter saying that as a prostitute she found that 90% of her experience was reassuring the men that she was a happy hooker.

Men immediately asked "so do you think men would have gone through with it if you had told the truth?"

She said probably not.

Men "so it's your fault men think you enjoy the job and you lie to get customers".

These men know full well that prostitution is the choice of the desperate. But it's still women's fault for the pretence that's required to make it work.

For the very hard of thinking, if you have to pay someone to have sex with you they don't want to have sex with you.

MrsTerryPratchett · Yesterday 22:53
NotDrowningJustCrowing and Boiledbeetle

Thank you for that set of posts which between you explain the reality so clearly.

@Crutcher

I'm not talking about trafficked sws, who are by definition being raped.

I'm glad you agree that trafficked sex workers are being raped. I see that you still avoid using the term modern slavery, which would include prostitutes who are working under modern slavery conditions but haven't been trafficked.

You might not want to talk about them but you have repeatedly made an absolute statement about prostitutes working in the UK, worded in such a way to imply that all or very nearly all of them are doing so by free choice. You have consistently tried to sweep the women who are prostituted under modern slavery in the UK under the carpet and don't seem to want to talk about them because you believe that they don't really exist in any meaningful numbers.

Though there are far fewer than some try to pretend. Read Sex, Lies & Statistics by Brooke Magnanti for some real data.

I provided sources that indicate numbers of women and children entering the sex trade under modern slavery and trafficking definitions every year in the UK. They don't seem like insignificant numbers to me.

I'd really appreciate it if you afforded me the courtesy of quoting the exact statistics and their primary source.

They don't seem like insignificant numbers to me.

These people get hand-waved away. Considering the horror of what happens to them, repeatedly raped and beaten, you'd think even the least empathetic man in the world could see the risks are simply too high.

I might believe most sex work is rape. But even if someone doesn't believe that, and only believes it's small numbers, it's still such a massive tragedy.

Ah right so the problem is the do gooders trying to help the sec workers, got it.

Bloody do gooders, agitating for workers rights! Stopping kids from being shoved up chimneys! Stopping poor people from earning a living!

FFS.

You might not want to talk about them but you have repeatedly made an absolute statement about prostitutes working in the UK, worded in such a way to imply that all or very nearly all of them are doing so by free choice. You have consistently tried to sweep the women who are prostituted under modern slavery in the UK under the carpet and don't seem to want to talk about them because you believe that they don't really exist in any meaningful numbers.

What's happened is that you and other PP have shifted the convo. The point I made is that it's offensive to compare actual rape, where a woman (usually) is robbed of her agency, with sw where a woman makes a choice to sell sexual services.

It's pretty clear I'm talking about the cases when the sw decides on her own, rather than being trafficked or forced by a pimp. Otherwise the point is moot anyway, as in that case she's actually being raped in the classic sense of the word.

But I'm talking about sw by choice. And while there are those who claim consent cannot be bought, I absolutely disagree, for reasons I've laid out. If consent couldn't be bought, all work would be slavery.

Note that my post wasn't about sw as an industry in general. I wasn't arguing that sw is a positive feature and that it should be promoted. All I was saying is that when a woman makes a choice to sell sex, she is not being raped. And to use that term to describe her choice, is a slap in the face for actual rape victims.

As an aside, I also noted that merely going after punters might feel righteous and activisty, but in actuality it harms those poor women who rely on punters to feed themselves and their children. Just because you think it's a sad state of affairs that some women have to sell sex, doesn't mean the solution is just to go after punters. That's simplistic and counter productive.

As to numbers, I pointed you in the direction of Brooke Magnanti's book. She has many credible sources and statistics. It's not on me to do your homework.

The one statistic you mentioned that sounds completely made up, is the ratio of men to women in sw. I've lived all my life on a street that has 'working women' on the corners, and I've never seen a man there. But maybe men only work online, hence why I pointed out you can check vivastreet and once again see there are at least 10 times as many women sws as men.

I'm not a punter and buying is raping.

Would men still think it was an acceptable risk to take? Would they think it was 'just a job' if it was the punter being beaten and coerced, even 'just' some of the time.

I'm willing to bet they wouldn't. But they choose that risk for the women.

Again, who said it's 'just a job' or who even spoke about the sex work industry in general, for that matter?

Let's be clear. Sw is at best high risk, possibly soul-destroying work. The flip side is that it's well paid, flexible hours and cash. Which is why there'll always be those who do decide to engage in it.

Not to make a direct comparison, but there are plenty of high risk jobs, that people take on for various reasons. Oil rigs, mining, joining the army, just to name a few. The fact that it's high risk, doesn't in itself negate the agency of the person choosing it, and it doesn't inherently make it non-consensual.

Your last sentence is just silly.

@Boiledbeetle

*potential rapist. Much the same as people who get their nails done in salons despite a good possibility the workers are trafficked, or buy clothes and gadgets even though they might have been produced by slaves in sweat shops.

The point is the man doesn't know if that's the day he's going to be a potential rapist or an actual rapist. But either way he doesn't Fucking care.

Which means he's happy to fuck the woman even if it means he's raping her.

In the eyes of the law maybe there's a dividing line between these things. In my opinion there is not.

And as there is more likelihood of him sticking his cock in someone less than fully consenting and enthusiastic than not any man who decides to pay a woman for sex might as well go out and pick some random woman and drag them down an alley.

As an actual rape victim i feel fine making this comparison.

And male sex workers don't tend to hang out on the same street corners as the women in my experience.

They have a different customer base and different methods of engagement.

And you don't see any qualitative difference between being repeatedly penetrated in all your orifices while a slave and doing someone's nails while a slave?

The slavery part is the same. The act is not.

There are reasons we have social mores around sex that we don't have around other activities.