Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tennessee Marriage Equality - The First to Fall

116 replies

invalide · 09/03/2023 13:09

The anti-LGBTQ political climate you are a part of has contributed to this bill passing. It was never going to stop at trans people.

I'm not some liberal for whom marriage equality is the be-all end-all metric of 'progress' or 'freedom', but it's indisputable we're looking at a backsliding of what limited recent progress has been made.

Tennessee Marriage Equality - The First to Fall
OP posts:
Pixiedust1234 · 09/03/2023 14:02

Although I do quite like idea that mumsnet has such giant-slaying cross jurisdictional world dominating impact.

And now I have this image of dinosaurs versus giants playing in my head. T-rexs and raptors ftw!! 😂

Datun · 09/03/2023 14:08

Be prepared for further backlash from the LGB community, OP.

Trans ideology glomming itself onto gay rights is taking those rights back bloody years.

I mean, come the fuck on. I'll never get over the spectacular arrogance of feverishly leveraging gay rights to promote an ideology that profoundly disagrees with the entire concept of homosexuality!!

It's not gender critical women who don't know what a lesbian is, op.

Helleofabore · 09/03/2023 14:12

Datun · 09/03/2023 13:16

Many women on here predicted, and were dreading, the LGB backlash as a result of trans ideology. You're blaming the wrong people.

Transactivists deliberately force teamed with homosexual rights, in order to authenticate their goals.

It's all documented in the Denton report.

What did you think women meant when they said trans ideology is regressive??

Transactivists don't even believe in homosexuality. Take it up with them.

No more needs to be said really.

It is apparent that some posters though will always blame women who disagree with them as being responsible for the wrongs in the world that are, in fact, the result of over reach by the group that the poster supports.

When you started conflating sex and gender and sexual orientation and gender identity, what did you expect would happen?

Shelefttheweb · 09/03/2023 14:13

So, the picture you put up states an individual does not need to solemnise a marriage if they have religious or conscientious objections. I don’t see the issue with that. Or don’t you agree with freedom of belief?

Helleofabore · 09/03/2023 14:19

"The same politicians who count themselves part of your political movement are the ones bringing about these laws. The debate whipped up around trans people's existence has simply been a foot in the door, an acceptable first target to shift the mainstream discourse further right."

The same politicians...

Our 'political movement' is one of feminism.

YOU seem to equate the belief that sex cannot be changed as a 'political movement'. Because you don't seem to understand, or even wish to understand, what the feminist perspective actually is.

"The debate whipped up around trans people's existence"

You mean the 'whipping' up with all the protests where angry males intimidate women?

Like the one you attended yourself. The one where you, someone who was likely seen over enthusiastically participating in the protest, the one with signs like 'decapitate terfs' decided to stroll through the group of women listening to the speakers and record their faces with your camera.

You mean.... that kind of 'whipping' up?

Shelefttheweb · 09/03/2023 14:26

Invalide definitely aligns with the Iranian purity police - objecting to an amendment that allows ministers in churches, imams in mosques or orthodox rabbis from declining to do something that goes against their religious beliefs. Annoying isn’t it when other people have beliefs that disagree with yours? I guess you feel it shouldn’t be tolerated?

Were you also disappointed with the amendment that introduced a minimum age?

Thelnebriati · 09/03/2023 14:29

Are you saying people should be forced to act against their beliefs, and if so in which situations is it acceptable? Medical staff in the US already have the right to not prescribe contraception, or perform an abortion, based on their conscience or religious beliefs. Bakers have the right not to make a homophobic birthday cake.

The amendment says;
SECTION 1. Tennessee Code Annotated, Section 36-3-301, is amended by adding the following as a new subsection:
(m) A person shall not be required to solemnize a marriage if the person has an
objection to solemnizing the marriage based on the person's conscience or religious beliefs.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 09/03/2023 14:33

CharlieParley · 09/03/2023 13:48

And another thing, there was a very early warning sign of this development in the US, when the ongoing struggle to protect employees from discrimination on the basis of their sexuality (at a federal level) was made harder by including gender identity. That law proposal was called ENDA. It had its best chance of passing in 2007, but this was scuppered by TRA winning the fight to have gender identity included in the Bill. After a lot of debate, it became clear that it would not pass because of that, so gender identity was then dropped again. The damage was done, though, and ENDA failed. Again. (And LGB rights campaigners had basically begged trans rights campaigners to let them have this Bill, because it would amount to self-sabotage to include the T. To no avail.)

From 2009, gender identity was included as a must.

ENDA never passed, never even got close after that. So the LGBT community gave up on it in 2015 and is now focusing on the Equality Act, which is still not law. In 2023.

If (and it's a big but reasonable if based on legal and political opinions I read), LGB campaigners had been allowed to focus on their rights first, I'm certain ENDA would have passed by now.

So I would say that there'll be a fair number of gay men and lesbian women in the US who'll blame someone entirely different from the OP for this new Bill.

I read this on Salon a few years back.

extract

America's gay community, or rather, its leadership, is apoplectic over the imminent passage of the first federal gay civil rights legislation, the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, or ENDA. ENDA would make it illegal for an employer to fire, or refuse to hire or promote, an otherwise qualified candidate simply because of their sexual orientation (gay, straight, lesbian or bisexual). (Contrary to popular belief, it is legal to fire someone for being gay under federal law and in 31 states.) You'd think this would be cause for celebration, but not so much.

ENDA was first introduced 30 years ago. In all that time, it only protected sexual orientation and never included gender identity. This year, that changed, and gender identity was added to the bill. Coincidentally, this year is also the first time that ENDA actually has a real chance of passing both the House and Senate -- but only if gender identity isn't in the bill. So the bill's author, openly gay Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., dropped the transgendered from the bill, and all hell broke loose. Gay activists and 220 national and local gay rights groups angrily demanded that gender identity be put back in the bill, guaranteeing its defeat for years to come. Many of them, suddenly and conveniently, found all sorts of "flaws" with legislation that they had embraced the previous 29 years. They convinced House Democratic leaders to delay action on ENDA till later in October. They'd rather have no bill at all than pass one that didn't include the transgendered.

Then an odd thing happened. I started asking friends and colleagues, ranging from senior members of the gay political/journalistic establishment to apolitical friends around the country to the tens of thousands of daily readers of my blog, if they thought we should pass ENDA this year even without gender identity. Everyone felt bad about taking gender identity out of ENDA, everyone supported transgender rights, and everyone told me "pass it anyway."

Their main argument, which I support: practical politics. Civil rights legislation - hell, all legislation - is a series of compromises. You rarely get everything you want, nor do you get it all at once. Blacks, for example, won the right to vote in 1870. Women didn't get that same right until 1920. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 provided a large umbrella of rights based on race, religion, sex and national origin, but failed to mention gays or people with disabilities. People with disabilities were finally given specific rights under the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, but gays as a class have still to be granted a single civil right at the federal level. If we waited until society was ready to accept each and every member of the civil rights community before passing any civil rights legislation, we'd have no civil rights laws at all. Someone is always left behind, at least temporarily. It stinks, but it's the way it's always worked, and it's the way you win.

I have a theory about revolutions. I've always believed that you can't force a country to have a revolution, and then expect democracy to stick. Yes, you can launch a coup, topple a government, and execute a Saddam, but for a revolution to stick - for democracy to survive - a country's citizens need to be responsible for, and vested in, the social change happening around them. Otherwise they have no ownership of it, as it wasn't their revolution.

I have a sense that over the past decade the trans revolution was imposed on the gay community from outside, or at least above, and thus it never stuck with a large number of gays who weren't running national organizations, weren't activists, or weren't living in liberal gay enclaves like San Francisco and New York. Sure, many of the rest of us accepted de facto that transgendered people were members of the community, but only because our leaders kept telling us it was so. A lot of gays have been scratching their heads for 10 years trying to figure out what they have in common with transsexuals, or at the very least why transgendered people qualify as our siblings rather than our cousins. It's a fair question, but one we know we dare not ask. It is simply not p.c. in the gay community to question how and why the T got added on to the LGB, let alone ask what I as a gay man have in common with a man who wants to cut off his penis, surgically construct a vagina, and become a woman. I'm not passing judgment, I respect transgendered people and sympathize with their cause, but I simply don't get how I am just as closely related to a transsexual (who is often not gay) as I am to a lesbian (who is). Is it wrong for me to simply ask why?

I wrote on my blog last week about this issue, and shared my doubts and concerns and questions. And I was eviscerated for it. While the majority of my readers either agreed with me, or found my questions provocative and relevant, a vocal minority labeled me a bigot, a transphobe, a rich, white boy living in a big city who didn't care about anyone but himself, and worse. An old activist friend even told me that my words were prejudiced, wrong and embarrassingly uninformed, and that no one of any consequence shared my concerns, and if they did, they were bigots too.

I know firsthand that it's not safe in the gay community to ask questions about how the transgendered fit in. I also know that I am not alone in my questions, or my fear of asking them. While I've been taking abuse for my position, I've also been amazed by the number of phone calls, e-mails and people stopping me on the street here in Washington, both straight and gay, thanking me for asking the questions I did, for voicing the doubts that they share. (Not surprisingly, many of these expressions of solidarity have been off-the-record.)

It would have been easy to simply write a blog post, or an article here today, about how I respect and support transgendered people and their rights (and I do), but how it was unfortunately political necessary to cut them out of ENDA. I could have chosen to never touch upon the question of the role of the T's in the LGB community. But that kind of self-imposed censorship is the reason we're in the pickle we are today. For 10 years now, the right questions never got asked, never got answered, and as a result, support for the inclusion of transgendered people in the gay community remains paper-thin for a sizable number of gays. Normally that wouldn't matter. But when we are asked well, told to put our civil rights on hold, possibly for the next two decades, until America catches up on its support for trans rights, a lot of gay people don't feel sufficiently vested in trans rights, sufficiently vested in the T being affixed to the LGB, to agree to such a huge sacrifice for people they barely know.

I remember sitting at lunch a few years back with Gloria Feldt, then president of Planned Parenthood. I was talking about the looming threat to Roe v. Wade from the Bush court, and Gloria told me that for all intents and purposes Roe was already dead. Conservatives had so whittled away at abortion rights over the past 30 years, with small amendments and ballot initiatives here and there, that it didn't matter that the courts had yet to overturn Roe itself. Roe had already been repealed through attrition and few to no abortion rights remained.

Conservatives understand that cultural change is a long, gradual process of small but cumulatively deadly victories. Liberals want it all now. And that's why, in the culture wars, conservatives often win and we often lose. While conservatives spend years, if not decades, trying to convince Americans that certain judges are "activists," that gays "recruit" children, and that Democrats never saw an abortion they didn't like, we often come up with last-minute ideas and expect everyone to vote for them simply because we're right. Conservatives are happy with piecemeal victory, liberals with noble failure. We rarely make the necessary investment in convincing people that we're right because we consider it offensive to have to explain an obvious truth. When it comes time to pass legislation, too many liberals just expect good and virtuous bills to become law by magic, without the years of legwork necessary to secure a majority of the votes in Congress and the majority support of the people. We expect our congressional allies to fall on their swords for us when we've failed to create a culture in which it's safe for politicians to support our agenda and do the right thing. ENDA, introduced for the first time 30 years ago, is an exception to that rule. It took 30 years to get to the point where the Congress and the public are in favor of legislation banning job discrimination against gays. It's only been five months since transgendered people were included in ENDA for the first time.

I support transgendered rights. But I'm not naive. If there are still lingering questions in the gay community about gender identity 10 years after our leaders embraced the T - and there are - then imagine how conflicted straight members of Congress are when asked to pass a civil rights bill for a woman who used to be a man. We're not talking right and wrong here, we're talking political reality. Our own community is still grappling with this issue. Yet we expect members of Congress, who took 30 years to embrace a gay ENDA, to welcome the T's into the bill in only five months.

Passage of ENDA, of any federal gay civil rights legislation, would be a huge victory for the gay community. Not just legally, but culturally. Hell, we could pass the legislative equivalent of "Four Minutes, Thirty-Three Seconds," the famous avant-garde musical composition that contains no notes and is nothing but silence, and it would still mark the beginning of the end of our long struggle for equality. I'm not joking. We could pass a bill titled "Gay Civil Rights Law" that contained no language whatsoever. The fact that the United States Congress finally passed legislation affirming gay and lesbian Americans as a legitimate civil rights community, as a protected class of American citizens rather than a group of mentally disturbed pedophiles, would empower our community, demoralize our opposition, and forever place us among the ranks of the great civil rights communities of the past and present.

That's why James Dobson, Tony Perkins and the men at the Concerned Women for America are so hell-bent on defeating ENDA. To the religious right, ENDA without gender identity isn't a weak, meaningless bill fraught with loopholes. Our enemies know that passage of any federal gay civil rights legislation is a legislative and cultural milestone that would make it that much easier for all of us - gays and lesbians, bisexuals and eventually even the transgendered - to realize all of our civil rights in our lifetime.

I'll take that half-a-loaf any day.

MassiveWordSalad · 09/03/2023 14:33

GatherlyGal · 09/03/2023 13:54

It's quite tedious now this constant blaming of sensible women for all the bad shit that happens.

Although I do quite like idea that mumsnet has such giant-slaying cross jurisdictional world dominating impact.

"Mumsnet: Giant-slaying Cross-jurisdictional World-dominating Impact - by parents, for parents"

MotherOfPuffling · 09/03/2023 14:35

CharlieParley · 09/03/2023 13:32

We warned about this as a primary risk arising from the gender identity movement.

We highlighted that the overall acceptance of the entire LGBT community was shrinking, even among young adults, solely as a result of extremist trans activist demands when the first US-wide attitude survey showed this a few years ago.

We highlighted just how detrimental it was to include a group whose aims were so different from the LGB community within their community and campaigns.

We particularly highlighted just how self-destructive it was to include a group who deny the very basis upon which the LGB community rests - namely sex from which derives sexuality.

But we were told to shut up about all of that.

We were not wrong when we highlighted the risks of gender identity ideology and the push for self-id to women's rights and children's wellbeing, because we were proved right. And we were not wrong to warn about the risk to the LGB rights, because once again we were proved right.

Feel free to ignore the truth though. It's your modus operandi after all.

^This!

Pallisers · 09/03/2023 14:35

Shelefttheweb · 09/03/2023 14:13

So, the picture you put up states an individual does not need to solemnise a marriage if they have religious or conscientious objections. I don’t see the issue with that. Or don’t you agree with freedom of belief?

This.

The Respect for Marriage Act 2022 (federal law) also includes a similar clause. It protects same sex marriage but recognises that a person can opt out of performing the ceremony on grounds of religion or conscious.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 09/03/2023 14:40

Suggest invalide takes a closer look at the worrying array of sex offenders, criminals, fetishists and MAPs claiming to represent your ideology. We all know they're not representative but they keep telling people at large that this is who they are - acceptance without exception.

That's a major reason why there's a backlash.

GailBlancheViola · 09/03/2023 14:43

Shelefttheweb · 09/03/2023 14:13

So, the picture you put up states an individual does not need to solemnise a marriage if they have religious or conscientious objections. I don’t see the issue with that. Or don’t you agree with freedom of belief?

Or don’t you agree with freedom of belief? You don't do you @invalide ? In fact you don't agree with any freedoms outside your prescribed remit, do you? And you have the brass neck to claim you and those like you are tolerant, liberal, progressive - you don't know the meanings of the words.

Or did you just not understand what the Bill you posted actually said?

Retractable · 09/03/2023 14:45

It’s kind of amazing that the new clause wasn’t in the original legislation in Tennessee.

It’s much better for lesbian and gay rights if the law says they can marry but doesn’t compel anyone to marry them if it’s against their beliefs. That way they can have their right to marriage without in any way compelling someone else to act against their beliefs.

The problem with trans activism is that there is absolutely no tolerance of people with different thoughts and beliefs. TRAs want to control how people think and compel them to do the things TRAs want.

This clause is no different than allowing religious organisations not to solemnise marriages following divorce, for example. You don’t have to agree with the attitude to divorce to recognise their right to practice their religion as they see fit, and to find someone who actually wants to solemnise your second marriage.

Why would gay or lesbian people even want to have their marriage solemnised by someone or an organisation that is fundamentally against gay marriage? There are plenty of people and organisations who would be honoured to be asked to do that. There’s no need to force anyone.

It’s forcing people that causes problems.

Delphinium20 · 09/03/2023 14:47

I have been saying since day one that conservatives in the US are not our friends. And also, this isn't some "first step in the erosion of rights." The Supreme Court gutted abortion rights a year ago. But that's about women's rights, something trans activists don't seem to care about or even, as OP demonstrates, knows much about.

Keep up, OP. Feminism is leaps ahead of you.

Helleofabore · 09/03/2023 14:49

invalide · 09/03/2023 13:09

The anti-LGBTQ political climate you are a part of has contributed to this bill passing. It was never going to stop at trans people.

I'm not some liberal for whom marriage equality is the be-all end-all metric of 'progress' or 'freedom', but it's indisputable we're looking at a backsliding of what limited recent progress has been made.

Tell us in your own words what you think this bill has changed?

Do you understand it?

Or have you simply come here to show that you have no understanding at all of other protected categories such as 'religious belief'?

Do you demand that everyone only believes what you want them to and that no one is allowed to hold their own beliefs that differ from your world view? Like a toddler would?

Naunet · 09/03/2023 14:49

invalide · 09/03/2023 13:09

The anti-LGBTQ political climate you are a part of has contributed to this bill passing. It was never going to stop at trans people.

I'm not some liberal for whom marriage equality is the be-all end-all metric of 'progress' or 'freedom', but it's indisputable we're looking at a backsliding of what limited recent progress has been made.

What the fuck are you even talking about? GC women of mumsnet (a UK website) do not make laws in American states, neither are we anti LGB.
Grow up.

Naunet · 09/03/2023 14:51

invalide · 09/03/2023 13:37

The same politicians who count themselves part of your political movement are the ones bringing about these laws. The debate whipped up around trans people's existence has simply been a foot in the door, an acceptable first target to shift the mainstream discourse further right.

From the side that claims there is no such thing as same sex attraction 🙄

TrouserTownie · 09/03/2023 14:53

Got enough screenshots yet, OP?

ResisterRex · 09/03/2023 14:55

Not sure the screen shots are the ones envisaged. Full of inconvenient facts and all that

Shelefttheweb · 09/03/2023 14:56

The problem with trans activism is that there is absolutely no tolerance of people with different thoughts and beliefs.

There is a word for that.

Datun · 09/03/2023 15:02

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 09/03/2023 14:33

I read this on Salon a few years back.

extract

America's gay community, or rather, its leadership, is apoplectic over the imminent passage of the first federal gay civil rights legislation, the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, or ENDA. ENDA would make it illegal for an employer to fire, or refuse to hire or promote, an otherwise qualified candidate simply because of their sexual orientation (gay, straight, lesbian or bisexual). (Contrary to popular belief, it is legal to fire someone for being gay under federal law and in 31 states.) You'd think this would be cause for celebration, but not so much.

ENDA was first introduced 30 years ago. In all that time, it only protected sexual orientation and never included gender identity. This year, that changed, and gender identity was added to the bill. Coincidentally, this year is also the first time that ENDA actually has a real chance of passing both the House and Senate -- but only if gender identity isn't in the bill. So the bill's author, openly gay Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., dropped the transgendered from the bill, and all hell broke loose. Gay activists and 220 national and local gay rights groups angrily demanded that gender identity be put back in the bill, guaranteeing its defeat for years to come. Many of them, suddenly and conveniently, found all sorts of "flaws" with legislation that they had embraced the previous 29 years. They convinced House Democratic leaders to delay action on ENDA till later in October. They'd rather have no bill at all than pass one that didn't include the transgendered.

Then an odd thing happened. I started asking friends and colleagues, ranging from senior members of the gay political/journalistic establishment to apolitical friends around the country to the tens of thousands of daily readers of my blog, if they thought we should pass ENDA this year even without gender identity. Everyone felt bad about taking gender identity out of ENDA, everyone supported transgender rights, and everyone told me "pass it anyway."

Their main argument, which I support: practical politics. Civil rights legislation - hell, all legislation - is a series of compromises. You rarely get everything you want, nor do you get it all at once. Blacks, for example, won the right to vote in 1870. Women didn't get that same right until 1920. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 provided a large umbrella of rights based on race, religion, sex and national origin, but failed to mention gays or people with disabilities. People with disabilities were finally given specific rights under the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, but gays as a class have still to be granted a single civil right at the federal level. If we waited until society was ready to accept each and every member of the civil rights community before passing any civil rights legislation, we'd have no civil rights laws at all. Someone is always left behind, at least temporarily. It stinks, but it's the way it's always worked, and it's the way you win.

I have a theory about revolutions. I've always believed that you can't force a country to have a revolution, and then expect democracy to stick. Yes, you can launch a coup, topple a government, and execute a Saddam, but for a revolution to stick - for democracy to survive - a country's citizens need to be responsible for, and vested in, the social change happening around them. Otherwise they have no ownership of it, as it wasn't their revolution.

I have a sense that over the past decade the trans revolution was imposed on the gay community from outside, or at least above, and thus it never stuck with a large number of gays who weren't running national organizations, weren't activists, or weren't living in liberal gay enclaves like San Francisco and New York. Sure, many of the rest of us accepted de facto that transgendered people were members of the community, but only because our leaders kept telling us it was so. A lot of gays have been scratching their heads for 10 years trying to figure out what they have in common with transsexuals, or at the very least why transgendered people qualify as our siblings rather than our cousins. It's a fair question, but one we know we dare not ask. It is simply not p.c. in the gay community to question how and why the T got added on to the LGB, let alone ask what I as a gay man have in common with a man who wants to cut off his penis, surgically construct a vagina, and become a woman. I'm not passing judgment, I respect transgendered people and sympathize with their cause, but I simply don't get how I am just as closely related to a transsexual (who is often not gay) as I am to a lesbian (who is). Is it wrong for me to simply ask why?

I wrote on my blog last week about this issue, and shared my doubts and concerns and questions. And I was eviscerated for it. While the majority of my readers either agreed with me, or found my questions provocative and relevant, a vocal minority labeled me a bigot, a transphobe, a rich, white boy living in a big city who didn't care about anyone but himself, and worse. An old activist friend even told me that my words were prejudiced, wrong and embarrassingly uninformed, and that no one of any consequence shared my concerns, and if they did, they were bigots too.

I know firsthand that it's not safe in the gay community to ask questions about how the transgendered fit in. I also know that I am not alone in my questions, or my fear of asking them. While I've been taking abuse for my position, I've also been amazed by the number of phone calls, e-mails and people stopping me on the street here in Washington, both straight and gay, thanking me for asking the questions I did, for voicing the doubts that they share. (Not surprisingly, many of these expressions of solidarity have been off-the-record.)

It would have been easy to simply write a blog post, or an article here today, about how I respect and support transgendered people and their rights (and I do), but how it was unfortunately political necessary to cut them out of ENDA. I could have chosen to never touch upon the question of the role of the T's in the LGB community. But that kind of self-imposed censorship is the reason we're in the pickle we are today. For 10 years now, the right questions never got asked, never got answered, and as a result, support for the inclusion of transgendered people in the gay community remains paper-thin for a sizable number of gays. Normally that wouldn't matter. But when we are asked well, told to put our civil rights on hold, possibly for the next two decades, until America catches up on its support for trans rights, a lot of gay people don't feel sufficiently vested in trans rights, sufficiently vested in the T being affixed to the LGB, to agree to such a huge sacrifice for people they barely know.

I remember sitting at lunch a few years back with Gloria Feldt, then president of Planned Parenthood. I was talking about the looming threat to Roe v. Wade from the Bush court, and Gloria told me that for all intents and purposes Roe was already dead. Conservatives had so whittled away at abortion rights over the past 30 years, with small amendments and ballot initiatives here and there, that it didn't matter that the courts had yet to overturn Roe itself. Roe had already been repealed through attrition and few to no abortion rights remained.

Conservatives understand that cultural change is a long, gradual process of small but cumulatively deadly victories. Liberals want it all now. And that's why, in the culture wars, conservatives often win and we often lose. While conservatives spend years, if not decades, trying to convince Americans that certain judges are "activists," that gays "recruit" children, and that Democrats never saw an abortion they didn't like, we often come up with last-minute ideas and expect everyone to vote for them simply because we're right. Conservatives are happy with piecemeal victory, liberals with noble failure. We rarely make the necessary investment in convincing people that we're right because we consider it offensive to have to explain an obvious truth. When it comes time to pass legislation, too many liberals just expect good and virtuous bills to become law by magic, without the years of legwork necessary to secure a majority of the votes in Congress and the majority support of the people. We expect our congressional allies to fall on their swords for us when we've failed to create a culture in which it's safe for politicians to support our agenda and do the right thing. ENDA, introduced for the first time 30 years ago, is an exception to that rule. It took 30 years to get to the point where the Congress and the public are in favor of legislation banning job discrimination against gays. It's only been five months since transgendered people were included in ENDA for the first time.

I support transgendered rights. But I'm not naive. If there are still lingering questions in the gay community about gender identity 10 years after our leaders embraced the T - and there are - then imagine how conflicted straight members of Congress are when asked to pass a civil rights bill for a woman who used to be a man. We're not talking right and wrong here, we're talking political reality. Our own community is still grappling with this issue. Yet we expect members of Congress, who took 30 years to embrace a gay ENDA, to welcome the T's into the bill in only five months.

Passage of ENDA, of any federal gay civil rights legislation, would be a huge victory for the gay community. Not just legally, but culturally. Hell, we could pass the legislative equivalent of "Four Minutes, Thirty-Three Seconds," the famous avant-garde musical composition that contains no notes and is nothing but silence, and it would still mark the beginning of the end of our long struggle for equality. I'm not joking. We could pass a bill titled "Gay Civil Rights Law" that contained no language whatsoever. The fact that the United States Congress finally passed legislation affirming gay and lesbian Americans as a legitimate civil rights community, as a protected class of American citizens rather than a group of mentally disturbed pedophiles, would empower our community, demoralize our opposition, and forever place us among the ranks of the great civil rights communities of the past and present.

That's why James Dobson, Tony Perkins and the men at the Concerned Women for America are so hell-bent on defeating ENDA. To the religious right, ENDA without gender identity isn't a weak, meaningless bill fraught with loopholes. Our enemies know that passage of any federal gay civil rights legislation is a legislative and cultural milestone that would make it that much easier for all of us - gays and lesbians, bisexuals and eventually even the transgendered - to realize all of our civil rights in our lifetime.

I'll take that half-a-loaf any day.

That's very interesting. I still don't really get why any gay person can't see, at least on a political level, the significant conflict between trans ideology and homosexuality.

I get there is a a crossover socially, especially with HSTS. So I understand the empathy.

But on a political level? The one completely obliterates the other.

Helleofabore · 09/03/2023 15:15

I wonder if the OP realises just how intolerant their posts are?

They seem to have form for not once checking critically what they are about to post. I assume that they have come directly from some other social media platform where others who seem to lack the critical awareness of what they are saying comes across to those who recognise that other protected groups have the right to their own beliefs. I also assume that that group OP has been interacting with is outraged that a law even exists that a person or a business doesn't have to provide a service that doesn't fit with their religious beliefs.

www.theguardian.com/law/2022/jan/06/gay-cake-row-man-loses-seven-year-battle-against-belfast-bakery

The OP may have forgotten this event.

BeatricePortinari · 09/03/2023 15:19

That seems like a reasonable law.

PatatiPatatras · 09/03/2023 15:27

Ahhhhh! The consequences of my own actions! Quick call mum, she needs to bail me out. She must. MUUUUM. you awful woman, how dare you not back me up. I don't want to be independent. Waaaah.

Look we've got our own kids who go round in circles. You remove the importance of sex? Fix it. You know exactly what to do to make homosexuality important again.