What are your thoughts on agender people?

[abc567]

Hello mumset, I am brand new here and made an account because I'm curious about how GC women feel about agender people. This is purely for my own understanding as I've read several posts from GC women on this site saying they do not have a gender identity, and I wanted to explore further the reasons why this is.

From my understanding, there are two types of agender people:

1. gender apathetic i.e. people who don't have a gender identity and don't care (gender has no inherent value to them so they do not mind gendered language being applied to them)

2. gender averse i.e. people who don't have a gender identity and actively reject gendered language (they are distressed at the gendered aspect of their lives and are more likely to seek an androgynous appearance)

Do either of these concepts resonate with you, or do you still feel very connected to your female sex despite lacking a gender identity?

OP wants to "explore the reasons why" some of us say we don't have a gender identity. Well ...

I will have a go at explaining.

I don't have a gender identity in exactly the same way I don't have a guardian angel, a paranormal aura or a method of squaring the circle (with straight-edge and compass ...) ... not in the way I don't have blonde hair, a million pounds in the bank or a friend in the Egyptian government.

What's the difference? Well, in a way I could have had blonde hair; in a (different) way I could have a million pounds or a friend in the Egyptian government. But I could not have had a paranormal aura, a guardian angel, a method of squaring the circle or a gender identity. Why? - Because there are no such things as guardian angels, paranormal auras, methods of squaring the circle, or gender identities.

Someone might delude themselves and think they have a friend in the Egyptian government (etc). (Perhaps they have an Egyptian friend who tells convincing lies. Whatever.) That is a different kind of delusion from thinking they have squared the circle, or that they have a guardian angel or a gender identity.

If someone tells you she has a gender identity, you know she is lying or mistaken, just as if someone tells you she has a method of squaring the circle.

Again, for emphasis: there is no such thing as gender identity. No matter what some people may claim, no matter how many people believe the contrary, there is no such thing.

So, to repeat, no, I do not have a gender identity. It would be impossible for me to have a gender identity because there is no such thing.

I hope that is some help, OP.

In what ways do you suspect gender may be essential to life or even just useful for it, in the twenty-first century west specifically?

That's one of the funniest comments I've read in a long time, I love it.

Quite amusing that the poster seems to be trying to shoehorn GC women into their own gender category, GC gender- doesn’t believe in gender.
At least with religion it’s accepted that you can choose to be or not be a Christian say, or a Muslim.

usefulness limited to only those things essential to life?

All sorts of things could be useful. But if you think "agender" is somehow a useful idea and is even worth refining into subtypes then it is up to you to explain to the rest of us why you think so. Not all classifications are useful or relevant. I don't find "agender" useful and I have already explained why.

You might benefit from first reading Kathleen Stock's book "Material Girls". She carefully explains four different current meanings and usages of the word "gender". You could think about which (if any) of those meanings relate to your own idea of "agender" and its subtypes. Happy reading!

This is a perfect response - out-crazy the crazies!

OP-can you explain what agenda means?

I reject gendered language because I hate the idea of people being constrained by gender stereotypes. As a feminist I have fought against this-for women, men and children-all my very long adult life.

@abc567
I always thought that the most boring thing anyone could talk about was the dream they had last night. I was wrong. Gender identity has proved me wrong.
And as to the question no doubt forming on your lips as to why I am on the thread in that case, my answer is that I am here for the responses.
A propos of which, @Bamboux... 😂😂😂

When I said there are more than 8 billion agender people I was thinking that because gender does not exist therefore no-one has a gender. I'm prepared to accept that there are in fact no agender people because gender does not exist and agender is a sort of gender.

So that's your binary, 8 billion+ versus zero. Pay your money, make your choice.

Dreams don't have to be dull, I had a brilliant dream with cats, and friend who's been dead for 30 years (but wasn't dead in the dream), and an unfortunate incident with a pet rat, but I won't describe it to an unappreciative audience.

Ha! Now I'm wondering if you're my friend who said the exact same thing about people divulging dreams.

(Mine was also NOT BORING)

Well obviously, @DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry & @BoredOfThisMansWorld, one's own dreams are fascinating. I know mine are! 😉

I absolutely agree. That's why the religion analogy (and my own atheism) from my comments above works well in my own head. "Live and let live" but not at the expense of people's freedoms.

"He is a man dressed in sparkly clothing because he really likes dressing that way. He also takes on a character called Lily" is the only way I would explain it to children. By extension, a man dressed as a woman is sadly in a position where they are a "character" (which is a shame because clothes shouldn't be . They deserve understanding and respect but not access to women's spaces. Biology is biology.

sorry missed the end of my sentence in brackets:

clothes shouldn't be only for certain sexes to wear)

I’m not sure that always applies. I think it’s ridiculous for a man to wear a bra, and similarly it would be ridiculous for a woman to wear a codpiece. OK, it’s ridiculous for a man to wear a codpiece, but not quite as ridiculous.

I don't have a strong gender identity, and I find it difficult to prove a lack of something, but I find it insulting and infantilising when people tell me that I MUST have a gender identity. I know that I am a woman because of my biological sex, and I prefer sex-based pronouns easier than identity-based ones, particularly as I don't feel that I do have a gender identity; this includes being agender. I reject sex-based stereotypes as being evidence of a gender identity. I wear trousers a lot, I don't cross my legs and if I wore stereotypically masculine clothing it wouldn't change my sex or lack of gender identity.

I will fight for the word woman to continue to mean adult female human, and people who are biologically male but who wish to identify as feminine can find any word they like to describe themselves, but they can't have woman because it's already taken, and it's too important to lose.

How do I feel about people who identify as agender? Ambivalent, really. They can do as they wish, I will refer to them as they wish, as long as they don't encroach upon my sex-based rights.

That still doesn’t make sense to me though, because we have tons of “made up things” we cannot live without. Clothes, shelter, heat sources, tools, medicine,….lose any of these made up/invented things and we die.

I think you are deliberately misunderstanding the words 'invented' and 'made-up' in the context in which they are being used by posters.

The meaning which many genderists attribute to 'gender identity' has quite a lot in common with 'soul'. There is absolutely zero proof of the existence of souls. In this case 'made-up' really means 'imagined' or 'fictional', not merely 'created by humans'.

Gender is made-up in that, unlike sex, there is no proof of its existence as an inherent, inbuilt feature of any human being, never mind a universal one. Also, what is seen as womanly or manly is not consistent or universal either, because it varies across time and across different cultures.

@Transparent2 we can think it's ridiculous/a poor fashion choice, and they can still wear it if they want.

I dislike the current trend for women (often those who ID as non-binary) to wear a button down man's shirt and bowtie as day to day wear - I don't think it suits most women's shape - but I will defend their right to wear it, and I wouldn't dream of saying my opinion out loud to them as it's none of my business, and I'd be a total hypocrite, as I sure as hell am no fashionista myself!

I think a man wearing a bra is ridiculous and a woman wearing a codpiece is ridiculous, because those items have been designed with sexed anatomy in mind. It's still fine with me if either sex wear them.

Better than non-binary, which is the opposite of what it claims to be. With agender you, for whatever reason, reject gender, which isn't a bad thing.

But by labelling yourself agender, you’re actually embracing the gender cult….

Is someone who labels themselves atheist embracing god?

Dunno, as I said 8 billion or none.

@Bamboux for Poet Laureate. Please.

I'm late to this having been watching a petition for two days straight but..

Beautiful words..just beautiful. Dabs eyes with soggy tissue.

💐

Aww thanks but it's not mine. It's Borges.

Where was it posted, Bamboux?