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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender identity research

95 replies

Vebrithien · 05/03/2023 10:51

Morning,

Just wondering if anyone has any scientific research that shows EVERYONE has a gender identity?

Likewise, is there any scientific research that shows that not everyone have a gender identity?

Am preparing references for arguing my point with DD's school, that gender identity is a belief, not a fact.

Thank you!

OP posts:
Forgotthebins · 05/03/2023 11:16

I doubt there is scientific research

Forgotthebins · 05/03/2023 11:21

Sorry posted too soon. I meant to say I doubt there is scientific research about anything that is an “identity” that could say that “everyone” has one. There are probably more things to argue about in the social sciences where I could see a constructivist argument that says that everyone develops a gender identity in a society that has gender stereotypes because you exist as a sexed person in that society. I think the Stonewall line of argument is that therefore everyone has a gender identity whether or not they describe it as such, the GC argument is let’s smash the stereotypes so that every body can live freely in their body. I am not sure if that helps?

Rightsraptor · 05/03/2023 11:28

I've read plenty saying 'everyone has a gender identity', including the World Health Organisation, but never any proof or references cited.

Nobody will ever convince me I have one.

myveryownelectrickitten · 05/03/2023 11:44

There’s no scientific research on this. Until very recently, the whole idea of “gender” was exclusively considered to be social - eg. gender was understood by social scientists to be the social networks of ideas that ascribe “femininity” or “masculinity” to particular ideas, presentations or behaviours — so, pink, long hair, makeup, being demure, staying at home with children, are all socially constructed ideas of gender. Also used to be known as “sex roles”/“sex stereotypes”. These also change over time in obvious ways - what is considered masculine or feminine is different in different eras. Second wave feminism (and lots of third wave feminism) was keen to dismantle or change sex roles and gender stereotypes.

In very recent years, this has become ideologically internalised so that “gender identity” no longer means something like “the gender roles I perform socially”, and something more like “an undefinable essence of gender residing in my soul/mind/inner identity” etc. This is more akin to a religious conception of the self/soul than anything you could measure scientifically.

Think about all those experiments from the sixties to the present that showed that gender stereotypes were inculcated and performed to babies/children from birth - eg. that caregivers responded differently to babies dressed as boys compared to babies dressed as girls and so on. All the actual science from the last century suggested that cultural and social gender roles start to be enforced very early on — these tended to suggest that gender roles (as opposed to sex) are largely socially produced, not innate. All that science directly contradicts the new religion of “gender identity”.

Think about a comparison with “national identity” (or other forms of social identity). We’d laugh at the idea that we all have an innate national identity ingrained in our soul (something that was, however, fervently believed in the nineteenth century). We understand that national identity is a set of cultural and social beliefs and narratives. (In fact, we used to understand that “identity” itself is a process of affiliation to particular cultural stories, values and beliefs.) We used to think about gender in similar ways, too, until very very recently, when gender ideologists promulgated the notion of an innate gender identity as some kind of inner transcendent essence (which could not be discovered by science even if science was bothered to go looking, since it’s essentially a kind of mystical entity).

There’s a wider process afoot in society where certain kinds of “identities” or aspects of identity are reified as innate essences when this suits some agendas (though some aspects of identities we still understand as social — it’s instructive to consider which identity aspects are being touted as “innate essences” and which aren’t, for example; and to wonder why, and what the political differences between these might be).

What would young people’s response be to the idea that any one of the following has an inner essence: race, social class, nationality, personality differences, what they like to eat, sexuality, religion, clothing choice, illnesses, liking for sports or not, melancholia, moral virtue, mental illness, promiscuity? At various points in history all of those have been considered to be, or not be, forms of “innate identities” or “innate essences”; and if some of them now look laughable it might be worth considering why we think our current understanding of these ideas might be so much better…?

Thelnebriati · 05/03/2023 11:50

Ask them to show you the research they used to assert that as fact.

TheBiologyStupid · 05/03/2023 11:51

If they're looking for evidence that the illusive gender identity exists they better book some time at CERN's Large Hadron Collider...

Vebrithien · 05/03/2023 11:56

Thanks!

Yes, I was under the impression that there wasn't any research that proved it.

Is there any research that disproves it?

This is what I'd like to be able to take to the table 😅

OP posts:
TheBiologyStupid · 05/03/2023 11:58

Thelnebriati · 05/03/2023 11:50

Ask them to show you the research they used to assert that as fact.

Absolutely - when it comes to the universal existence of gender identity, Hitchens' razor applies: "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence". en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor

myveryownelectrickitten · 05/03/2023 12:06

Cordelia Fine’s book “Delusions of Gender” is good on how little hard science there is to back up the idea of gendered differences in the brain/self.

BonfireLady · 05/03/2023 12:08
(posted on another thread from a MNer) contains lots of research and exploration around whether gender identity is real or not. It's her opinion but she backs it up with how she formed it. I'd imagine it's similar to how someone could present the case for atheism.

I'm an atheist but I fully respect the fact that many people believe in Christian, Muslim or (multiple) Hindu gods. Faith gives a lot of people great comfort.
Ergo, I'm happy for someone told hold the belief that they have a gender identity. I personally don't.

Vebrithien · 05/03/2023 12:11

Happy for them to hold it as a belief.

Not happy it is being taught as fact in primary schools

OP posts:
WarriorN · 05/03/2023 12:16

A guy called sammy: @ NeuroSGS on twitter regularly comments on lack of scientific evidence in this area

Sazzasez · 05/03/2023 12:18

Vebrithien · 05/03/2023 11:56

Thanks!

Yes, I was under the impression that there wasn't any research that proved it.

Is there any research that disproves it?

This is what I'd like to be able to take to the table 😅

We don’t need research that disproves it, because it’s for those who make the novel claim that everyone has a gender identity to prove it - or at least, to show why it might be a reasonable thing to believe.

The claim that “everyone” has one is called into question when a single person says they don’t.

I am that person, but I’m pretty sure there are many more of us. I’m confident my parents didn’t have one either: they never mentioned it.

As far as I can tell, people reach the conclusion that they have a gender identity by a process of introspection, relating your social & cultural prompting.

(I’ve put myself through a process of introspection and concluded - nope, nada).

So it seems to be a product of consciousness - which should mean that if you’re in a coma, or if you have developmental problems, you can’t have one.

Similarly, there’s evidence that trans people who have dementia forget their gender identity, and are sometimes horrified by surgeries they have had done.

Brazilianadventure · 05/03/2023 12:18

@Vebrithien not concrete proof but the 2021 census may help. www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/genderidentity/bulletins/genderidentityenglandandwales/census2021

  • The census question on gender identity was a voluntary question asked of those aged 16 years and over. The question asked “Is the gender you identify with the same as your sex registered at birth?”.
  • Overall, 45.7 million (94.0% of the population aged 16 years and over) answered the question.
  • In total, 45.4 million (93.5%) answered “Yes” and 262,000 (0.5%) answered “No”.
  • The remaining 2.9 million (6.0%) did not answer the question.

At least 2.9 million people in England and Wales did not respond when asked if they had a gender identity. Realistic it is safe to assume some of those didn’t respond because they don’t have a gender identity. I doubt anyone could come up with robust statistics to challenge that assumption.

You could also use Stonewall, who have the following definitions (bold is my highlighting):

  • “Gender - Often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, gender is largely culturally determined and is assumed from the sex assigned at birth.”
  • ”Gender identity - A person’s innate sense of their own gender, whether male, female or something else (see non-binary below), which may or may not correspond to the sex assigned at birth.”

Stonewall’s own definitions therefore leave room for not having a gender identity. I doubt they meant to 😂.

Does it have to be scientific or would legal do?
Gender Identity and Gender Critical are not separate protected characteristics in their own right. They are protected characteristics, being WORIADS under the Religion or belief pc. Under the Religion or belief pc we accept not everyone has a religion, atheists who disbelieve or lack belief in god(s) are the equivalent of people who disbelieve or lack belief in gender identity.

NecessaryScene · 05/03/2023 12:22

You'd have to define "gender identity" first. No-one can agree on a definition.

It could be something like "sex someone says they are", in which case you're not supposing a mechanism, and then you can maybe agree that everyone (capable of it) says they're a particular sex - some people lie, some people don't.

But then other people seem to have disassociated it from sex, and choose something other than male or female. In which case, it's not a true or false statement about sex, it's something else.

It all makes as much sense as insisting that everyone has a height identity, and assuming that people who don't lie about their height have a "height identity" that matches their height, while a bunch of other people insist their height identity is 50kg or 23mph and are taken seriously.

You can do this with any physical attribute of a person - so why do it to "sex" in particular?

Some people do seem to think that there is a genuine "brain sex" thing, but that must be clearly something quite separate from all the random "genders", in which case why are we lumping them together? And it seems spectacularly unlikely in that all the men who claim they're women statistically act exactly like men, and vice versa. It would have to be a "thing that makes you say you're of a sex while having no demonstrable characteristics of that sex". And you have to somehow ignore homosexuality while looking for that - that IS a 100% demonstrably real opposite-sex-brain thing, but apparently doesn't count. Make it make sense.

Brazilianadventure · 05/03/2023 12:29

@Vebrithien I meant to say the 2021 Census is a fantastic resource and very difficult to discredit/challenge etc.

  • ONS is a globally recognised authority on data collection and analysis
  • ONS sets out its methodology
  • ONS has a history of data and analysis that is second to none
  • The 2021 census collected data on nearly 57 million people, allowing very robust conclusions to be made as the sample size was the whole population.
MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 05/03/2023 12:30

*The claim that “everyone” has one is called into question when a single person says they don’t.

I am that person, but I’m pretty sure there are many more of us. I’m confident my parents didn’t have one either: they never mentioned it.

As far as I can tell, people reach the conclusion that they have a gender identity by a process of introspection, relating your social & cultural prompting*

Rather like religious faith, then.

NecessaryScene · 05/03/2023 12:30

Stonewall’s own definitions therefore leave room for not having a gender identity. I doubt they meant to

"Definitions"!? They didn't actually define "gender", and as little as they did say doesn't match the use of it in "gender identity".

Never mind trying to pin down gender - trying to pin down the distinction between "gender" and "gender identity" makes me feel like Alice in Through the Looking-Glass.

...
"You are sad," the Knight said in an anxious tone: "let me sing you a song to comfort you."
"Is it very long?" Alice asked, for she had heard a good deal of poetry that day.
"It's long," said the Knight, "but very, very beautiful. Everybody that hears me sing it—either it brings the tears into their eyes, or else—"
"Or else what?" said Alice, for the Knight had made a sudden pause.
"Or else it doesn't, you know. The name of the song is called 'Haddocks' Eyes'."
"Oh, that's the name of the song, is it?" Alice said, trying to feel interested.
"No, you don't understand," the Knight said, looking a little vexed.
"That's what the name is called. The name really is 'The Aged Aged Man'."
"Then I ought to have said 'That's what the song is called'?" Alice corrected herself.
"No, you oughtn't: that's quite another thing! The song is called 'Ways And Means': but that's only what it's called, you know!"
"Well, what is the song, then?" said Alice, who was by this time completely bewildered.
"I was coming to that," the Knight said. "The song really is 'A-sitting On A Gate': and the tune's my own invention."
...

A cynic would suggest that they only separate "gender" and "gender identity" to allow them to make a circular definition that's a bit less obvious than "a woman is anyone who feels like a woman".

Vebrithien · 05/03/2023 12:30

Brazilianadventure · 05/03/2023 12:18

@Vebrithien not concrete proof but the 2021 census may help. www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/genderidentity/bulletins/genderidentityenglandandwales/census2021

  • The census question on gender identity was a voluntary question asked of those aged 16 years and over. The question asked “Is the gender you identify with the same as your sex registered at birth?”.
  • Overall, 45.7 million (94.0% of the population aged 16 years and over) answered the question.
  • In total, 45.4 million (93.5%) answered “Yes” and 262,000 (0.5%) answered “No”.
  • The remaining 2.9 million (6.0%) did not answer the question.

At least 2.9 million people in England and Wales did not respond when asked if they had a gender identity. Realistic it is safe to assume some of those didn’t respond because they don’t have a gender identity. I doubt anyone could come up with robust statistics to challenge that assumption.

You could also use Stonewall, who have the following definitions (bold is my highlighting):

  • “Gender - Often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, gender is largely culturally determined and is assumed from the sex assigned at birth.”
  • ”Gender identity - A person’s innate sense of their own gender, whether male, female or something else (see non-binary below), which may or may not correspond to the sex assigned at birth.”

Stonewall’s own definitions therefore leave room for not having a gender identity. I doubt they meant to 😂.

Does it have to be scientific or would legal do?
Gender Identity and Gender Critical are not separate protected characteristics in their own right. They are protected characteristics, being WORIADS under the Religion or belief pc. Under the Religion or belief pc we accept not everyone has a religion, atheists who disbelieve or lack belief in god(s) are the equivalent of people who disbelieve or lack belief in gender identity.

Yes!

The census results!

I like it 😊

I know that they'll claim that everyone has a gender identity. Anything that suggested otherwise is useful.
Actual numbers are even more useful.

Do you mind if I put those numbers into my "schools break it down" thread?

OP posts:
BonfireLady · 05/03/2023 12:32

Vebrithien · 05/03/2023 12:11

Happy for them to hold it as a belief.

Not happy it is being taught as fact in primary schools

Yep. Exactly that.

I'll be following your post with interest. Please do keep us posted on how you get on.
The latest news on Rishi Sunak "considering" (please consider quickly, Rishi 🤞) a review of current RSE/PHSE materials is also heavily linked to this point. Aside from the age-inappropriateness of some of the content, the science and the belief are currently muddled up.

Brazilianadventure · 05/03/2023 12:35

NecessaryScene · 05/03/2023 12:30

Stonewall’s own definitions therefore leave room for not having a gender identity. I doubt they meant to

"Definitions"!? They didn't actually define "gender", and as little as they did say doesn't match the use of it in "gender identity".

Never mind trying to pin down gender - trying to pin down the distinction between "gender" and "gender identity" makes me feel like Alice in Through the Looking-Glass.

...
"You are sad," the Knight said in an anxious tone: "let me sing you a song to comfort you."
"Is it very long?" Alice asked, for she had heard a good deal of poetry that day.
"It's long," said the Knight, "but very, very beautiful. Everybody that hears me sing it—either it brings the tears into their eyes, or else—"
"Or else what?" said Alice, for the Knight had made a sudden pause.
"Or else it doesn't, you know. The name of the song is called 'Haddocks' Eyes'."
"Oh, that's the name of the song, is it?" Alice said, trying to feel interested.
"No, you don't understand," the Knight said, looking a little vexed.
"That's what the name is called. The name really is 'The Aged Aged Man'."
"Then I ought to have said 'That's what the song is called'?" Alice corrected herself.
"No, you oughtn't: that's quite another thing! The song is called 'Ways And Means': but that's only what it's called, you know!"
"Well, what is the song, then?" said Alice, who was by this time completely bewildered.
"I was coming to that," the Knight said. "The song really is 'A-sitting On A Gate': and the tune's my own invention."
...

A cynic would suggest that they only separate "gender" and "gender identity" to allow them to make a circular definition that's a bit less obvious than "a woman is anyone who feels like a woman".

@NecessaryScene thats my whole point, if Stonewall have such waffle on their definitions page use it to challenge those who are captured as they can hardly say Stonewall are wrong on that without having to admit they may have got other things wrong.

WarriorN · 05/03/2023 12:36

This thread has a series of articles around personality between the sexes and as with many of these things relating to sexist assumptions about men and women, a lot of it comes down to the statistical methodology employed

twitter.com/neurosgs/status/1619047656663433218?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

Brazilianadventure · 05/03/2023 12:36

@Vebrithien definitely use it and provide the link to the ONS data as it lends credibility to the quote.

DemiColon · 05/03/2023 12:38

I think for real research on this you'd need to look at thinking on identity overall - and I think there is quite a bit in psychology about how people develop a stable identity. But I don't think it especially squares with the mainstream thinking on gender identity.

BunnyBerries · 05/03/2023 12:41

With regards to schools -

Unfortunately it appears to me that when you enrol or apply for your child's school they generally ask you or 'assign' your child their 'gender' for the yearly dept of education survey - I realised this when I enrolled my children into their school and filled in the online application, and also had to manually edit the health information form which asked their 'gender', to say sex (it's sex that is important on a medical form for children, surely!!?). As far as I can tell (assume), they assumed "gender" at that age to mean "sex" not "gender identity" because it looks like the answer might affect potential applications for single sex schools. Because of this yearly census they must have to provide the govt information on each child's "gender" - I honestly don't even know what would happen or how they would handle statistics or applications, if you wrote female if your child is actually male.

Out of curiosity does your school use the wording "gender" or "gender identity"? Some laws it appears even also use context to assume "gender" means sex. Which just makes things more complicated and why we need to be clear on statistics. (Just in case your school is recording sex alongside 'gender identity'.)

explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/find-statistics/school-pupils-and-their-characteristics

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