Gender identity research

[Vebrithien]

Morning,

Just wondering if anyone has any scientific research that shows EVERYONE has a gender identity?

Likewise, is there any scientific research that shows that not everyone have a gender identity?

Am preparing references for arguing my point with DD's school, that gender identity is a belief, not a fact.

Thank you!

This is another good article which I found on one of Sammy's pinned threads (collections of studies around neuroscience and gender identity) - La agrees with his take down on a series of research publications looking for evidence of trans brains in brain scans, but fail to control for a number of other factors.

Within it she also refers to various bits of research (one is by Joel) that effectively do disprove evidence for innate gender identity due to the fact that the brain is exceptionally plastic and individual, response to environmental factors, and research cannot measure the unmeasurable.

lascapigliata.com/2018/06/30/transactivists-war-on-reality-what-they-think-studies-show-vs-what-studies-actually-show/

What does pop up in the trans brain research is differences in areas of the brain linked to self perception, as with other body self perception disorders such as anorexia and body dysmorphia.

Identity is about perception, of others or ourselves and ourselves in relation to others. We are visual and social creatures who use materials symbolically (art, fashion, culture, religious dress).

Sorry, meant to add la scapigliata and couldn't remember how to spell it!

I think she's probably written more about gender identity. I think she has a medical background too.

Yes of course, she published a book on it!

lascapigliata.com/2022/11/22/i-published-a-book/

It's gender identity from a medical perspective and could be a good reference point as she's clearly delved into the scientific evidence

You have effectively stated the whole 2021 Census is not “scientific evidence”, dismissing its whole methodology and approach because of one question. You will never win that argument.

No I haven't. That's not an argument I have made, never mind wanting to win it. Do you think you might have a tendency to misunderstood things?

You are remarkably over invested in your "evidence". and theory. You can't seem to grasp how implausible it is that over 40 million people have self diagnosed a gender identity, when other posters are actually providing inputs on the lack of scientific evidence for the concept of gender identity.

How has this population diagnosed themselves with a non existent condition if not via a misleading question?

This. It’s not up to you or me to prove that the Earth orbits the Sun either. It’s up to those asserting their unscientific beliefs to try to prove them.

And as Electrickitten says, there’s evidence that ‘gender identity’ is learned, not innate:
Think about all those experiments from the sixties to the present that showed that gender stereotypes were inculcated and performed to babies/children from birth - eg. that caregivers responded differently to babies dressed as boys compared to babies dressed as girls and so on. All the actual science from the last century suggested that cultural and social gender roles start to be enforced very early on — these tended to suggest that gender roles (as opposed to sex) are largely socially produced, not innate. All that science directly contradicts the new religion of “gender identity”.

Exactly.

Gender identity is a belief like religion is.

The ons data is self identifying as believing in the concept of gender identity.

Exactly like it asks people to self identify as believing in the concept of a specific religion.

Religion exists because it's a social human construction.

It's not doing that either. It's asking people if they are still male or female or are something else now.

That's not asking them what they believe at all.

Biologically driven identity is slightly different but exists.

how you experience the world and existing in society due to a physical reality. Hence the need to recognise disability, race, sex, pregnancy.

It's not doing that either. It's asking people if they are still male or female or are something else now.

That's not asking them what they believe at all.

You can't change sex. So the question is wrong. The question is a question of what they believe about themselves

@Hepwoyou posted
Hepwo · Yesterday 19:44
A census is not "scientific evidence".

I will ask you again, having made that statement, please enlighten me what is your definition is of “scientific evidence” if it’s not data collection and analysis?

Where have I said “I believe 40 million people have self diagnosed a gender identity”? What I have said is “For what it’s worth, my view is the vast majority of the adult population have always use sex and gender interchangeably and answered that question with a duh of course it’s the same.”

To be clear you and I agree the question is not valid and the resulting stats aren’t worth the paper they are written on, but I believe they are considered credible stats and that selective quoting can bolster an argument, you disagree.

I will ask you again

Where do you think you are? In a court room?

Go to hell.

@Vebrithien it was actually @Ereshkigalangcleg who posted the advice to look at the neurological research.

The census q was voluntary and so observational/ opinion.

Anyway, the OP has been offered the ONS survey data now and can make up their own mind about whether or not it suits their purposes.

@WarriorN I agree.

What is interesting is that the ONS used 7 categories to analyse the data:

• Gender identity the same as sex registered at birth
• Gender identity different from sex registered at birth but no specific identity given
• Trans woman
• Trans man
• All other gender identities
• Not answered
• Does not apply

They report on 6 of the categories but so far I haven’t found stats on how many people responded “no” to the question then when asked to state their gender identity stated “does not apply” as this would include those who responded “I don’t have a gender identity”.

You need only one person to not have a gender identity to disproven it's universality so the theory that everyone has a gender identity is proven false. That is unequivocal.

What is less clear is what people think a question like the ONS one was asking. People do not, I think, properly understand that they are being asked whether they call themselves male because of their body or something entirely separate. They're just conflating sex and gender. It is in gender ideologists interests to allow confusion between the two terms to continue because the continuation of men infiltrating women's spaces depends on a lack of clarity.

I am sorry, I misunderstood. Indeed, yes I should have read the thread. Apologies.

You are right, of course. ONS data is no more evidence for or against the existence of gender identity than would be the results of a poll about guardian angels, say, or paranormal auras.

("Do you have a guardian angel?" ... CBS News: Nearly 8 in 10 Americans believe in angels)

That is not to deny either the scientific status or the utility of statistical data, of course.

One of the many problems with extrapolating anything from that 'research' is that Bruce/David was not 'transitioned' until he was 18 months old - not as a brand new baby without any experience of living and being treated as a boy.

(Besides, of course, the largest elephant in the room is that he actually was a boy - not as an identity but as a physical fact. So using it as an argument for any sort of identity separate from the physical, sexed, body simply doesn't wash.)

And his parents knew he was a boy, presumably their family and friends did, possibly his twin brother knew it too, and he hardly had a normal, everyday life, given the operations and investigations.

This. It's impossible that he didn't know.