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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scotland turning into a banana republic without the bananas as they "elect" the next El Presidente

91 replies

lechiffre55 · 01/03/2023 14:37

Just read this and my mind is blown. It's like reading about a South American dictatorship running "elections" to re-elect El Presidente beloved of the people!
wingsoverscotland.com/the-last-days-of-saigon/
The first link in that article "last night’s article on Craig Murray’s site" makes my heart sink to read. Over the years I have really softened to the idea of Scottish Independance. If the Scots think they are better of going it alone, then who are we to interfere? But the blatant corruption and utter lack of democracy in Scottish politics is starting to make me think the Scottish aren't up to running their own country. Like a small child who tells you they are totally up to using the gas cooker unsupervised, it's cute but not based in reality. It's an utter travesty what's happening, and a complete betrayal of the Scottish people.
Can whisky even be made from bananas?

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 03/03/2023 09:55

OP, this:

Scottish politics is starting to make me think the Scottish aren't up to running their own country. Like a small child who tells you they are totally up to using the gas cooker unsupervised, it's cute but not based in reality.

Was an offensive thing to say. Which will explain some responses to your post/thread.

Shelefttheweb · 03/03/2023 09:57

randomsabreuse · 03/03/2023 09:36

I live in Scotland but am not Scottish. The SNP's success feels to me like a natural consequence of the UK wide Westminster parties (other than the Tories) basically having a lack of interest outside London and the suburban south east. Labour used to be popular in Scotland but while the northern English traditional labour voters went to the Tories, in Scotland they went SNP because it felt like less of a step.

Most elections are won when people vote for the least worst option, which in Scotland seems to be the SNP for a lot of people.

First past the post sucks generally. If Westminster went PR I think there might be more sense that the regions are relevant again.

How much of that ‘lack of interest’ arises from the fact that the things that are of most interest to people (health, education, transport, etc) are devolved?

You think it would be better if Westminster MPs no longer represented constituents but were chosen by the party and represent the party? I used to think PR sounded good but the Scottish list system changed that. The list system gave us Patrick Harvey and Lorna Slater, neither of whom could attract personal votes but got in regardless and then made government ministers.

ArabellaScott · 03/03/2023 09:57

Has Scotland ever not been under the thumb of the SNP?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Scotland

Shelefttheweb · 03/03/2023 09:59

ArabellaScott · 03/03/2023 09:55

OP, this:

Scottish politics is starting to make me think the Scottish aren't up to running their own country. Like a small child who tells you they are totally up to using the gas cooker unsupervised, it's cute but not based in reality.

Was an offensive thing to say. Which will explain some responses to your post/thread.

I agree that is offensive. More correct would be to say that the Scottish Parliamentary system is unfit for purpose.

IkBenDeMol · 03/03/2023 10:04

Another Scot, living in Scotland and paying tax in Scotland.

The whole system is rubbish. No second chamber which means that the regime can pass whatever legislation they like, unchallenged. And cause a huge fuss when "Westmonster" steps in and stops the crazy stuff like the gender reform act. Greens are even nuttier and have far, far too much power. SNP is a closed shop, MSPs are not allowed to dissent or stray from the party line and if they do (like Joanna Cherry and Ash Regan), they're chucked out.

There is a HUGE lack of talent int Scottish politics. Ruth Davidson was very good at challenging the Scot Gov but she's now off to the House of Lords. Johann Lamont brought her former teacher demeanour to parliament but she's left too. Had high hopes for Anas Sarwar in Labour but so far, so meh.

The SNP pulling themselves apart and internally combusting is fantastic for those of us on the unionist side. My only concern is that it will leave a power vacuum for Alec Salmond to make a reappearance.

NatashaDancing · 03/03/2023 10:26

beguilingeyes · 03/03/2023 09:32

The Tories have given us four Prime Ministers in as many years. Two of whom we had no say in...and it's theScots who are crazy?!

Holyrood currently has Green Ministers dictating government policy who got around 1700 ( coming last out of 5 in the constituency vote) and 3200 votes (coming 4th out of 5)

I prefer Westminster actually getting rid of PMs who are a disaster (and fwiw I think Sunak is doing a good job) than the lunacy going on in Holyrood.

IkBenDeMol · 03/03/2023 10:33

Quite. My kids were off school three days last week and three days next week in "targeted action" as we have the misfortune to live in the same constituency as some Green MSP who was elected on the regional list and who nobody actually voted for.

lechiffre55 · 03/03/2023 10:42

I meant no offense. In years past I would have apologised for causing offense, but these days with the way everything is going, I don't know that I want to automatically apologise for any offense taken.

I was trying to convey that actions to date by the SNP were making my views on the matter move in a direction contrary to the direction that they had previously been moving steadily for a long while. A right to self determination.

I feel that there is some small merit to my comment in that a nation who wants to self determine has spectaurlarly failed in it's attemps to do so. The only thing that saved Scotland was Westminster and section 35. Sturgeon's ultimate aim has to be free of that oversight. I heartily agree with everyone who posted that Scotland is NOT the SNP. But let's not forget who put the SNP in charge of Scotland, the people of Scotland. If Scotland had voted for independence last time there would have been no section 35 to save Scotland from the SNP.
I guess the right to self determination also includes the right to fuck things right up too.

OP posts:
randomsabreuse · 03/03/2023 11:13

What Scotland needs is a viable opposition, if the SNP is so bad why hasn't one turned up from somewhere, whether it be from one of the UK wide parties or a new party (formed by expelled rebels from the SNP for example).

How about a positive alternative with reasonable policies rather than "they're bad vote for us because we're not quite as bad".

The PR should make it easier for new parties to get a foot hold (with the risk of tail wagging the dog in coalitions). With FPTP the SNP wouldn't have needed the Green coalition given what Westminster representation looks like...

Tratjymp · 03/03/2023 11:47

Scottish politics is starting to make me think the Scottish aren't up to running their own country. Like a small child who tells you they are totally up to using the gas cooker unsupervised, it's cute but not based in reality.

It's what can happen when hotheads try to concoct a new teeny weeny country.

Malefactors see their chance.

ComeTheFckOnBridget · 03/03/2023 11:52

I'm not in favour of independence but I have a real issue with this statement:
starting to make me think the Scottish aren't up to running their own country.
This attitude has brrn used for hundreds of years to oppress others.

DemiColon · 03/03/2023 12:11

Shelefttheweb · 03/03/2023 09:25

lechiffre55. I would say I am a centrist (uk politics - which is pretty left wing for USA). But I also think change is vital. I think it is unhealthy for any party to be in power too long - locally or nationally. In most parties in Westminster being too long in power tends to be offset by the rise of rebels - effectively leading to a minority government (which subsequently falls). The list system prevents this and the SNP rules reinforces their compliance.

I have a lot of doubts about this kind of set up in any government, and also unicameral set-ups. There was a time when I was quite keen on various types of proportional representation, but watching those kinds of systems in action has tended to make me think they aren't better and may in fact be worse.

I think both will tend to lead to a very heavily party dominated system with really significant centralized authority, which IMO makes for a shitty democracy.

I can easily see why someone might feel it makes Scotland, or any other place, a bad candidate for independence if their systems look like they aren't up to doing the job long term. In fact I'd say if that looks to be a problem it would be better for people to start thinking about it before relying on those systems alone.

Tratjymp · 03/03/2023 12:15

ComeTheFckOnBridget · 03/03/2023 11:52

I'm not in favour of independence but I have a real issue with this statement:
starting to make me think the Scottish aren't up to running their own country.
This attitude has brrn used for hundreds of years to oppress others.

Tell us how Scotland is being oppressed.

NatashaDancing · 03/03/2023 12:33

Tratjymp · 03/03/2023 12:15

Tell us how Scotland is being oppressed.

It isn't.

Shelefttheweb · 03/03/2023 12:37

Tratjymp · 03/03/2023 12:15

Tell us how Scotland is being oppressed.

SNP+Greens

NatashaDancing · 03/03/2023 12:55

Shelefttheweb · 03/03/2023 12:37

SNP+Greens

True, very true. Any oppression is not coming from Westminster.

LexMitior · 03/03/2023 13:46

Isn't it fair to say, even with Holyrood, that Scottish political talent migrates south to Westminster? You can see plenty of that over the decades. This leaves a low level of ability for the devolved government and so Scotland, even if it votes SNP, is trapped by the fact that their best people are basically not working in the devolved parliament.

Scotland has lots of talent. It is just not engaging with devolution. So you get really third rate people making laws. Nicola Sturgeon inlcluded - given a fantastic situation by Alex Salmond, a Westminster operator who got and nearly won a referendum, and she ruined it.

ComeTheFckOnBridget · 03/03/2023 14:25

Tratjymp · 03/03/2023 12:15

Tell us how Scotland is being oppressed.

That isn't actually what I said.

I said I objected to the sentiment that any country should be discouraged or prevented from self governance because of an external perception that they're not up to it.

lechiffre55 · 03/03/2023 14:50

ComeTheFckOnBridget · 03/03/2023 14:25

That isn't actually what I said.

I said I objected to the sentiment that any country should be discouraged or prevented from self governance because of an external perception that they're not up to it.

This attitude has brrn used for hundreds of years to oppress others.

OP posts:
ComeTheFckOnBridget · 03/03/2023 14:54

lechiffre55 · 03/03/2023 14:50

This attitude has brrn used for hundreds of years to oppress others.

Yes, it has.
That is not the same as saying its being used to oppress the Scottish.
🙄

lechiffre55 · 03/03/2023 14:57

ComeTheFckOnBridget · 03/03/2023 14:54

Yes, it has.
That is not the same as saying its being used to oppress the Scottish.
🙄

It sort of is implying it is given the context of your entire post.
That what other readers of your post took from your post anyway.

OP posts:
ComeTheFckOnBridget · 03/03/2023 15:06

lechiffre55 · 03/03/2023 14:57

It sort of is implying it is given the context of your entire post.
That what other readers of your post took from your post anyway.

I can see what others took from my post.

lechiffre55 · 03/03/2023 15:16

Maybe if you don't want people to pick up on something, don't post it.

OP posts:
SerenaVanDerWoodsenHumphrey · 03/03/2023 15:55

@Lechiffre55: I know in the UK the Tories do long spells in charge but Blair and Brown also had a nice long spell at the helm. It does flip back and forth, even if it takes some time to flip. Has Scotland ever not been under the thumb of the SNP?

Yes, absolutely! I'm not having a go, as I know you said you don't know Scottish politics well, but it's a funny question from a Scottish perspective because until sometime in the 2000s - 2010s, Scotland was Labour-dominated for about a century. And before that it was dominated by other socialist/workers' parties, some of whom were pro independence. The SNP have been around for ages - won their first seat at Westminster in 1967 and kept up a small presence, but their status as the third largest party (overtaking the Lib Dems) didn't happen until 2015.

I was living abroad in 2010, when the UK election was held which kicked out Gordon Brown and consigned the whole UK to fifteen years of Conservative rule. I remember being surprised that in terms of MPs elected, Scotland broke into (roughly) thirds: Labour, Lib Dem, SNP. I was surprised to see the SNP figuring significantly outside of the Highlands and Islands. I think that's where the Scotland-wide balance started to shift - with the Holyrood election of 2007 and the UK election of 2010. But there was an even bigger shift after the 2014 Scottish Independence Referendum, which in my view was wildly botched by both Labour and the Conservatives who, rather than taking the referendum mandate and the 45% "Yes" result as a warning shot took it as an admission of defeat from Scottish separatists (and, to some extent, Scottish devolutionists). It wasn't, and the triumphalism that followed - EVEL and so on - galvanised support for the SNP.

I'm in a Glasgow (city) constituency where Labour was long dominant, and I grew up in the constituency next door, where my family still live. In both of these, the balance tipped in the 2015 UK election - AFTER the referendum. Both constituencies had been Labour safe seats for a century, and both flipped SNP in 2015 and have stayed SNP. In both of these constituencies, which should be target "swing seats", Labour has not run a competent candidate since the 2015 flip - why on earth not?

RE 21st century Scottish politics, ArabellaScott posted a great link upthread, but for an even quicker "potted history": the Scottish Parliament has existed since 1999, following two referndums where the majority approved a devolved Scottish Assembly and Executive - now a Parliament and a Government. Independence supporters (including but not limited to the SNP) wanted and fought for it, but its main and decisive advocate was Labour - who didn't want an independent Scotland, but wanted devolution.

From 1999 to 2007, Scotland had Labour-led coalition governments with the Lib Dems as junior partner. In 2007, the balance flipped and the SNP won the largest number of seats; they opted for a minority government. In 2011, the SNP won an outright majority. When Alex Salmond (boo! hiss!) resigned after the no vote in the 2014 independence referendum, Nicola Sturgeon became FM. In 2016, the SNP lost their majority but still got the highest number of seats, so formed another minority government. In 2021, the SNP gained a few seats but still not a majority and formed a coalition government with the Greens.

So SNP dominates for now - and the focus is on who they will elect as Leader, and if that person becomes FM. It's interesting to look at the composition of Holyrood today (there are 129 seats): SNP 64, Con 31, Lab 22, Greens 7, Lib Dems 4 + Presiding Officer 1 who only votes to break a tie. Interesting times!

NatashaDancing · 03/03/2023 16:13

I said I objected to the sentiment that any country should be discouraged or prevented from self governance because of an external perception that they're not up to it.

I don't know who posted this, but it's such a straw man. The separatists twist any objections to separatism to either "you're anti- Scotland" and /or "are you saying we're not up to it". (Although the current SNP administration has made a good fist of showing they're not up to it)

I honestly don't understand why anyone supports separatism or the SNP. What is the point beyond grudge holding of chips on your shoulder and sentimentality.