Scotland turning into a banana republic without the bananas as they "elect" the next El Presidente

[lechiffre55]

Just read this and my mind is blown. It's like reading about a South American dictatorship running "elections" to re-elect El Presidente beloved of the people!
wingsoverscotland.com/the-last-days-of-saigon/
The first link in that article "last night’s article on Craig Murray’s site" makes my heart sink to read. Over the years I have really softened to the idea of Scottish Independance. If the Scots think they are better of going it alone, then who are we to interfere? But the blatant corruption and utter lack of democracy in Scottish politics is starting to make me think the Scottish aren't up to running their own country. Like a small child who tells you they are totally up to using the gas cooker unsupervised, it's cute but not based in reality. It's an utter travesty what's happening, and a complete betrayal of the Scottish people.
Can whisky even be made from bananas?

Bloody hell, I didn't realise that the SNP had a gagging clause in place. Even during World War II, any MP who felt like it could bollock Churchill. When the War went Wrong - as it did a lot in the first three years - Winnie got his arse kicked (Fall of Singapore, Fall of Tobruk etc). Needless to say Axis propaganda made hay with these bollockings but they still happened.

But the SNP won't allow it in peacetime. That is shocking.

Even in 2014, it was clear wings was wrong about oil paying for independence.

Did he ever say it would? Salmond didn't.

Fuckity bye

Signed

An actual Scottish person.

I can't remember what Wings specifically said on economic issues. But then again the Yes campaign never said anything specific either beyond, "it'll be fine, we can use the £ and rely on The Bank of England as the bank of last resort" (to which George Osborne said, "er, no you won't")

Wings is still pro separatist- he just hates the SNP.

The SNP is not Scotland.
Scotland is not the SNP.
I remember, when I moved to Scotland in 1990, they were a wee fringe group.
Their greatest achievement has been to equate support for the SNP with Nationalism / being ' a real / true Scot'. Their worst 'achievement' - how to choose from the destruction of educational standards (& the politicisation of education too), the Named Person fiasco, the care home / Covid scandal (also happened in England tbf), NS & PS being at the centre of the Missing Funds, the nightmare of women being legally erased in Scotland & "trans' men being given light sentences in women's prisons, but worst of all is the lack of democracy- from forcing SNP MSOs to toe the line on ALL votes to now making the hustings as secretive as possible. The SNP is NOT Scotland !!

And another fuckity bye and awa' and bile yer head from me, another Scottish person, living in Scotland.
I had enough of the SNP and the absolutely still precedent shite that stuck from the independence vote 'if you're not with us, you're against us' attitude which made so many peoples work and private life horrific.

l studied dictatorships and fascism at undergrad, I can literally discuss anything I want in Scotland, yes I might get criticism on Twitter but I won’t get murdered in my sleep…
You might not get murdered (yet) but it's likely you could have....
-Your children removed or decisions made about their care against your will.
-Your employment lost.
-Your bank accounts frozen
All under the lovely SNP roolz...

I know that this thread is dead as a dodo, but in the interest of accuracy I just have to post.

But fork me the political situation with the SNP seems to be a real shitshow in reality. At least in the rest of the UK any party that makes a mess of things can get voted out. The Tories arses are dangling way out over the cliff edge from my point of view. I'm worried about Starmer the fence sitter not knowing what an adult human female is when he gets in. My point is in the rest of the UK the party in charge can be changed through a general election.

In general, a "snap" general election is easier/more likely for Scotland (Holyrood) than for the whole UK (Westminster).

When a UK PM resigns, the new party leader automatically becomes PM (subject to royal assent). But at Holyrood, the FM must be elected by a majority of MSPs. Because no one has a majority at Holyrood, the SNP will need at least one other party's MSPs to support their candidate. (Which is why there's so much speculation that the Greens might nix this or that SNP leadership candidate - but the SNP can get their person through with the help of any other party or a random assortment of rebel MSPs).

If no candidate wins a majority, or if the winner isn't considered capable of maintaining the confidence of the Parliament, there's no FM. If there's no FM 28 days after the current FM resigns, there's an election.

Also, the Scottish Parliament can still trigger an election by a 2/3 majority of MSPs. The UK Conservatives used their majority from 2019 - on the strength of which they have had 3 PMs, the last elected by nobody - to change the rules in the UK so that only the PM can call an election. When Truss and then Sunak opted not to call one, that was that.

Neither the UK nor Scotland is a "one party state", but I'd say the UK is functionally closer at the moment. Of course, the UK also has the check and balance of a second chamber in the HoL, which Scotland does not.

First time I've seen 'at least we get the government we vote for' used as a pro-westminster point.

Holy jesus, the irony.

Also utterly laughable that divisive UK ultra-nationalists seem to think that 'separatist' is somehow a derogatory term, when so many of them were overjoyed at separation from the EU, and they venerate the state responsible for the ongoing clusterfuck of a segregated Ireland, again, entirely of their own design.

Yet more of the utterly risible - your nationalism and separatism = bad, our nationalism and separatism = good.

I agree with this.

So not about Scotland at all in fact, but another opportunity to tell women if they're not joyfully embracing rape in prisons and exclusion from public spaces if they don't happen to be able to put the emotional needs of a male above their own at all times, that they're bad and evil and 'don't live in the real world'. (And you're definitely GC.)

Gosh it's amazing how often that line is pulled.

Yeah whatever. Ta ta love, you do you.

Yet your message does exactly what you are criticising others of.

name changed as embarrassed to now be associated with these GC threads

You always were.

It is not ‘Scottish culture’ that passed the GRR bill, it was the failure of a political system driven by ideologically captured MSPs and civil servants. Dictatorships don’t appear overnight, they start with not allowing dissent (SNP rules, hate crimes bill, potential conversion bill, removal of women wearing suffragette colours from Parliament, calling political discussion ‘hate’), creation of preferred citizens/sacred caste (transgender) and differentially policing them (ignoring threats by them and signs calling death of those who disagree with them whilst arresting GC women at their behest), by the destruction of democratic systems (sham consultations, lobbyists for transgender writing bills/being given the position to examine them and inviting their lobby group members as witnesses/whipping MSPs to vote for the resulting bill), by hiding appointment of leaders behind closed doors and changing rules to fit preferred candidates (SNP hustings and leadership election), by allowing organisations representing their preferred ideology to train in distortions of the law and do nothing to correct it (Stonewall), by funding civic organisations and requiring them to agree with you as a condition of this....

I always use "separatist". I refuse to use "independent" for the lunatic idea of breaking up the UK. because I don't consider Scotland is oppressed, or shackled or that it needs its "freedom".

So far as your other points, even if it were relevant, I was a remainer. The division in Scotland is caused by divisive ultra Scottish nationalists. There is no majority for separatism. There wasn't in 2014, but they refuse to accept the democratic result of the referendum and there isn't now.

Thanks, that's really helpful information.

Yeah, it's not great seeing it all written out in one big list.

I think the really damaging things to democracy are when we have two apparently irreconcilable positions. Left/Right, Yes/No, Brexit/Remain. Setting up a very swift 'us or them' situation and pushing people further into extremes. Plus we end up with deadlock.

@SerenaVanDerWoodsenHumphrey
Really good info on the new FM needing to pass a vote at Holyrood. I didn't know that, and clearly that makes a huge difference in the process when compared to Westminster. Thank you.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX
You seem to have a real bee in your bonnet. Maybe in your generic discussions about politics outside of this thread you butt your head into people who "'separatist' is somehow a derogatory term" and "Yet more of the utterly risible - your nationalism and separatism = bad, our nationalism and separatism = good." but I'm not seeing it in this thread. It may be something you bump into a lot, but it seems to have really entrenched itself into you.
Where in this thread I've stated that the fate of Scotland should be decided by the people of Scotland, even if that means them leaving the UK. Part of that sentiment literally comes from the political sabotage after the result of the Brexit referendum. I believe that politicians should enact the will of the people with good grace, even if they disagree with the will of the people.
In Scotland you voted to stay in the UK once. I think there going to be at least one more vote on the matter. But at some point it needs to be a settled matter either way, and whatever the poticians think, it should be the people of Scotland as a whole who decide. If you guys vote to leave in the future I will respect that. I hope you vote to stay. These votes on Scotland and Brexit are VERY divisive and it seems to really hurt the social fabric of the country quite a lot.
I think you need to chill out just a fraction.

@Shelefttheweb
The title of my original post, and the contents were a bit tongue in cheek. I was feeling an emotional reaction to the concept of holding political campaigning behind closed doors, and compared it to other countries where every aspect of political control over citizen's life is decided behind closed doors. I was hyperbolic. But you very clearly listed a load of different factors giving examples, thank you. Politics is always a dirty game, and it's the sunshine of the public's attention that seems to keep it clean. e.g. Boris getting the boot. All the news coming out of Scotland the SNP seems to point to a form of government where it's all decided in advance behind closed doors and then they go through the motions of pretending it's democratic. It feels to an outside observer far away, that once they get elected that's it, they just issue edicts, fuck what the people think. I know in the UK the Tories do long spells in charge but Blair and Brown also had a nice long spell at the helm. It does flip back and forth, even if it takes some time to flip. Has Scotland ever not been under the thumb of the SNP?

lechiffre55. I would say I am a centrist (uk politics - which is pretty left wing for USA). But I also think change is vital. I think it is unhealthy for any party to be in power too long - locally or nationally. In most parties in Westminster being too long in power tends to be offset by the rise of rebels - effectively leading to a minority government (which subsequently falls). The list system prevents this and the SNP rules reinforces their compliance.

The Tories have given us four Prime Ministers in as many years. Two of whom we had no say in...and it's theScots who are crazy?!

I live in Scotland but am not Scottish. The SNP's success feels to me like a natural consequence of the UK wide Westminster parties (other than the Tories) basically having a lack of interest outside London and the suburban south east. Labour used to be popular in Scotland but while the northern English traditional labour voters went to the Tories, in Scotland they went SNP because it felt like less of a step.

Most elections are won when people vote for the least worst option, which in Scotland seems to be the SNP for a lot of people.

First past the post sucks generally. If Westminster went PR I think there might be more sense that the regions are relevant again.

One thing that really confuses me about ( some in ) Scotland is the desire to be free of the shackles of the UK, and at same time the desire to rush headlong into the shackles of the EU. If you feel like a slave, wouldn't you want to be free instead of just swapping one slave owner for another.

There used to be this academic lady I would bump into every so often. She was from a small Balkan state that joined the EU. She was always complaining that the EU promised them equality in stature if they joined the EU, but when they joined the EU they got treated like a small Balkan state. They weren't treated like Germany or France, and felt like they weren't being taken seriously. I was too polite to ever express my "well what the fuck did you expect?" to her. I'm sure in Sturgeon's head she was another Merkel waiting just offstage for her cue, but I'm guessing she would have been very surprised when she found herself sat among the Balkans at the kiddies table.

Being in the EU gives freedom of movement within it - so you can go to different countries and broaden your experience or settle somewhere else.

If we aren't in the EU we still have to obey their laws to trade with them, so they still affect us. Or we can follow the laws of the USA but the cost of export is higher.

I always considered the EU to be a bit like Hobbes' Leviathan, not great, unwieldy but a load better than going it alone in a world of Leviathans. To mix my philosophers, EU is not an Utopia, just the least bad choice for now (Russia, USA, China being the other major choices).

But that is my point - in Westminster (which includes Scotland as part of it), when a party has been in power too long rebels rise and exert their power leading to a more unstable government. That is good as it is democracy, it prevents PMs becoming too authoritarian, and reduces extremism. This fact the SNP have NOT had change and Sturgeon was not challenged is a BAD thing.