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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Help with DD

55 replies

Dignorantonio · 01/03/2023 11:10

Dd22 has been away at Uni. We knew she was a bit TWAW but only realised how brainwashed she’s been this weekend. Proper militant TRA. Crying when we tried to broach it with her. No understanding of GC arguments - just that we are all TERFs and bigots.

We might be able to persuade her to read or watch one or two things that could help her see though tbh I think she’s too far gone.

Anyone have any links to articles or videos that cover the main issues in one piece?

honestky was quite disturbing, she’s a bright girl and behaving like a religious fanatic.

OP posts:
Fukuraptor · 01/03/2023 17:33

I think I would drop the subject. She's entitled to her (wrong 😉) opinion and the clearly you are both trying to convince the other and I doubt either will be successful. It is so heated and her thinking on it is so black and white right now.

If you aren't on the side of the righteous, kind people then you are an evil one to be shunned.

I'd go for ". I like a good debate with you, but last time felt too much like an argument and I love you too much to spend your visits home arguing over anything more intense than laundry service/shower times/snack provision. It's okay for us to disagree about this or religion or politics, you are your own person."

It would be good longer term if you were a safe sounding board for her to express her/her friends' opinions and test them out. So not with you in the role of debating hard the other side, but instead with you in a curious role asking questions that might be thought provoking as people have suggested.

One idea I have with this stuff is not to tackle it head on, but by talking about feminism more generally. I don't think she has enough context to understand why your points are important. The book Invisible Woman doesn't address the trans issue as far as I can remember but it is a good reminder of ways in which women have been disadvantaged by a world set up for men in many walks of life. I think young women often think the big historical issues like votes and pay solved the problems and we have equality now, and they haven't really bumped up against some of the things women experience that they can't simply identify out of or men into.

That book made me and my female friends very ragey though, we nick named it the angry book!

Fukuraptor · 01/03/2023 17:38

they haven't really bumped up against some of the things women experience that they can't simply identify out of or men into yet*

flyingbuttress43 · 01/03/2023 17:40

There are people and organisations out there who specialise in "rescuing" people from cults. I wonder if parents caught up in this divisive ideology don't seek advice from these experts as the trans ideology has so many hallmarks of being a cult.

Original poster
Dignorantonio · 01/03/2023 17:47

Diverze · 01/03/2023 15:56

IMO in young MC girls this view is usually based on a perception of oppression of transpeople, based in a kind of "be kind to the oppressed" conditioning of UK MC education and parenting.

If I were going to work on trying to get her thinking - which I would only do on a much separate occasion - I would work to undermine this argument.

So, middle class female from stable family sharing bathroom with transgirl - no clash of rights perceived. The female would not feel threatened and would perceive she is being inclusive to a less fortunate or less privileged "class" - transpeople.

However, flip that about a bit. Now, it's a Muslim woman in hijab in the bathroom when the trans woman comes in. Both religion and gender reassignment are protected. Religious Muslim women should not be undressed in a space with a male person who is not their husband. Who is more oppressed in this scenario? The religious minority or the LGBT minority? Would she recognise the internal conflict the Muslim woman might face in this bathroom scenario? Is it simply because she is bigoted? Should the Muslim woman stop using public bathrooms so she doesn't face this scenario?

Now it's a woman who was recently raped on a night out and who has PTSD. Her friends have persuaded her to come out for a meal and she has agreed after much anxiety. As she exits the cubicle, she sees a trans woman come into the bathroom. She feels a wave of fear as she can tell this is a natal male, and she is alone in a vulnerable space with him. Now who is more oppressed? The sexual assault victim having a physiological fear response, or the trans woman? Is the rape victim only feeling fear because she is a bigot? Should she not have come out at all if she didn't want to find herself in a secluded space with a natal male person?

Now it's a little girl, aged 7, who has popped into the ladies' loo at M and S while her Mum changes her little brother's nappy in the separate baby changing room. A trans woman emerges from a stall as she comes in. The 7 year old feels confused and scared. She runs to a cubicle and locks herself in, then starts to cry. Age is a protected characteristic alongside gender reassignment. Is she only crying because she is a bigot? Should she not have been allowed to use the ladies' loo alone unless she had been prepared that sometimes she might see someone she perceives as a male person in there, and that's ok?

I think sometimes people with great privilege don't consider that their experience is not the universal one; and that because they would not feel threatened by a transperson in a particular scenario, this doesn't mean that nobody would. That it isn't the case that all women as a class hold more privilege than all transwomen as a class. And if someone does feel threatened, is that only because they are by definition transphobic or bigoted, or is it possible that there could be a valid reason? If there is ever a valid reason, then there is a clash of rights, and a discussion should be had to work out a solution.

Great post Diverze. She is a very privileged young woman and it’s so disappointing to see the absolute absence of any empathy for women in different situations. If I were to suggest those scenarios to her I genuinely believe her answer would be that the women and the girl simply need to be educated.

OP posts:
nepeta · 01/03/2023 17:51

Someone who wrote that she had had success with talking about these issues created a photo gallery of some things which have happened and then chose a picture to talk about (such as the podium after some elite women's sports event).

She said that allowed her to focus on one specific part of the problem which might be clearest to a particular friend or acquaintance, say, child safeguarding or sports or the erasure of the female sex. She'd ask what the other person thought about the story in the screenshot, but didn't expand into a general rant.

StillWeRise · 01/03/2023 17:59

Diverze · 01/03/2023 15:56

IMO in young MC girls this view is usually based on a perception of oppression of transpeople, based in a kind of "be kind to the oppressed" conditioning of UK MC education and parenting.

If I were going to work on trying to get her thinking - which I would only do on a much separate occasion - I would work to undermine this argument.

So, middle class female from stable family sharing bathroom with transgirl - no clash of rights perceived. The female would not feel threatened and would perceive she is being inclusive to a less fortunate or less privileged "class" - transpeople.

However, flip that about a bit. Now, it's a Muslim woman in hijab in the bathroom when the trans woman comes in. Both religion and gender reassignment are protected. Religious Muslim women should not be undressed in a space with a male person who is not their husband. Who is more oppressed in this scenario? The religious minority or the LGBT minority? Would she recognise the internal conflict the Muslim woman might face in this bathroom scenario? Is it simply because she is bigoted? Should the Muslim woman stop using public bathrooms so she doesn't face this scenario?

Now it's a woman who was recently raped on a night out and who has PTSD. Her friends have persuaded her to come out for a meal and she has agreed after much anxiety. As she exits the cubicle, she sees a trans woman come into the bathroom. She feels a wave of fear as she can tell this is a natal male, and she is alone in a vulnerable space with him. Now who is more oppressed? The sexual assault victim having a physiological fear response, or the trans woman? Is the rape victim only feeling fear because she is a bigot? Should she not have come out at all if she didn't want to find herself in a secluded space with a natal male person?

Now it's a little girl, aged 7, who has popped into the ladies' loo at M and S while her Mum changes her little brother's nappy in the separate baby changing room. A trans woman emerges from a stall as she comes in. The 7 year old feels confused and scared. She runs to a cubicle and locks herself in, then starts to cry. Age is a protected characteristic alongside gender reassignment. Is she only crying because she is a bigot? Should she not have been allowed to use the ladies' loo alone unless she had been prepared that sometimes she might see someone she perceives as a male person in there, and that's ok?

I think sometimes people with great privilege don't consider that their experience is not the universal one; and that because they would not feel threatened by a transperson in a particular scenario, this doesn't mean that nobody would. That it isn't the case that all women as a class hold more privilege than all transwomen as a class. And if someone does feel threatened, is that only because they are by definition transphobic or bigoted, or is it possible that there could be a valid reason? If there is ever a valid reason, then there is a clash of rights, and a discussion should be had to work out a solution.

top tip- if you explore these types of examples (and I think its a great idea) -
use the word 'intersectionality'

Onnabugeisha · 01/03/2023 18:05

Dignorantonio · 01/03/2023 11:10

Dd22 has been away at Uni. We knew she was a bit TWAW but only realised how brainwashed she’s been this weekend. Proper militant TRA. Crying when we tried to broach it with her. No understanding of GC arguments - just that we are all TERFs and bigots.

We might be able to persuade her to read or watch one or two things that could help her see though tbh I think she’s too far gone.

Anyone have any links to articles or videos that cover the main issues in one piece?

honestky was quite disturbing, she’s a bright girl and behaving like a religious fanatic.

Why are you instigating such discussions if they end in tears?

You do know that GC beliefs and TWAW beliefs are both belief systems worthy of respect in a Democratic society?

So just respect she has different beliefs from you and leave her alone about it. Stop trying to convert her. You’re going to make visits so uncomfortable and confrontational that she will end up cutting you out of her life.

Original poster
Dignorantonio · 01/03/2023 18:13

Onnabugeisha · 01/03/2023 18:05

Why are you instigating such discussions if they end in tears?

You do know that GC beliefs and TWAW beliefs are both belief systems worthy of respect in a Democratic society?

So just respect she has different beliefs from you and leave her alone about it. Stop trying to convert her. You’re going to make visits so uncomfortable and confrontational that she will end up cutting you out of her life.

Show quote history

Sorry, but the belief that a violent rapist is a woman and should be locked up with vulnerable women is absolutely not a belief worthy of respect in any society.

OP posts:
waterbabys · 01/03/2023 18:14

Not a DC but my younger sister a few years ago when I first started realising TWAW was a load of bullshit. She was a very vulnerable early 20s who rarely left the house due to chronic illness which exacerbated her existing poor self esteem & anxiety. She found her tribe on tumblr and became entrenched very quickly as she's bisexual and saw it as defending her 'community'.

The subject came up and I expressed TWANW, backed up with logic and recent MOJ data, she started off with 'bigot' etc, then made some sexist reasoning and ultimately went off crying when I unraveled her regurgitated word salad she clearly learned online. We drew a line under it because we love each and this was genuinely our first real argument that was silly (over clothes etc!).

Now, 6 years later she is GC. She started seeing through it a couple of years ago and when she brought it back up I would subtly agree and pose questions to nudge her along but didn't go too hard about it. So maybe try that with DD?

lordloveadog · 01/03/2023 18:32

A couple of generations ago girls like this became devout Anglo-Catholics. Treat it like that. A burst of adolescent piety that will fade.

Onnabugeisha · 01/03/2023 18:33

Dignorantonio · 01/03/2023 18:13

Sorry, but the belief that a violent rapist is a woman and should be locked up with vulnerable women is absolutely not a belief worthy of respect in any society.

Show quote history

You know what is also not worthy of respect? The belief that all transwomen are paedophiles and sexual deviants. Another belief is that gender identity is a myth peddled to children so they will take puberty blockers all as part of a conspiracy by pedophiles to create prepubescent looking children that are the age of consent for sex with them. Do you believe any of this? I would hope you do not. But you should know that there are GC extremists do actually believe these things.

For every specific “TRA belief” not worthy of respect, there is a corresponding one held by GC extremists.

You have to look at the mainstream, accepted orthodoxy of the belief systems not the extremes.

Seriously though, you need to quit being so awful to your DD22 if you want to have a relationship with her as an adult woman. I’d not discuss sex or gender politics at all with her, seek common ground and connection.

Original poster
Dignorantonio · 01/03/2023 18:36

Onnabugeisha · 01/03/2023 18:33

You know what is also not worthy of respect? The belief that all transwomen are paedophiles and sexual deviants. Another belief is that gender identity is a myth peddled to children so they will take puberty blockers all as part of a conspiracy by pedophiles to create prepubescent looking children that are the age of consent for sex with them. Do you believe any of this? I would hope you do not. But you should know that there are GC extremists do actually believe these things.

For every specific “TRA belief” not worthy of respect, there is a corresponding one held by GC extremists.

You have to look at the mainstream, accepted orthodoxy of the belief systems not the extremes.

Seriously though, you need to quit being so awful to your DD22 if you want to have a relationship with her as an adult woman. I’d not discuss sex or gender politics at all with her, seek common ground and connection.

Show quote history

Absolutely no one is claiming that all trans women are rapists. Absolutely no one. Try harder.

OP posts:
Onnabugeisha · 01/03/2023 18:50

Dignorantonio · 01/03/2023 18:36

Absolutely no one is claiming that all trans women are rapists. Absolutely no one. Try harder.

Show quote history

It’s like you don’t even know that most transwomen think rapists should not go to a women’s prison, but to a separate secure transgender unit. You’re hearing these extremist positions by a very vocal fringe minority and tarring your DD with the same brush.

Believing TWAW doesn’t mean you also believe rapists should be in a womens’ prisons.

It’s rather like accusing someone who didn’t get the covid vaccination of also believing that the vaccine has nanobots in it that the government uses to read our minds.

BiggerBoat1 · 01/03/2023 18:54

Agree to differ. You think you're right. She thinks she's right.

She's an adult and you should afford her a little more respect. You don't have to change her views to fit yours. Maybe that's why she's getting upset?

JulesJules · 01/03/2023 19:12

Onnabugeisha · 01/03/2023 18:50

It’s like you don’t even know that most transwomen think rapists should not go to a women’s prison, but to a separate secure transgender unit. You’re hearing these extremist positions by a very vocal fringe minority and tarring your DD with the same brush.

Believing TWAW doesn’t mean you also believe rapists should be in a womens’ prisons.

It’s rather like accusing someone who didn’t get the covid vaccination of also believing that the vaccine has nanobots in it that the government uses to read our minds.

Show quote history

But if TWAW, it is inevitable that rapists end up in womens prisons.

SallyWD · 01/03/2023 19:15

Just don't discuss it? She's allowed to have her own opinions.

senua · 01/03/2023 20:19

SallyWD · 01/03/2023 19:15

Just don't discuss it? She's allowed to have her own opinions.

Yeah, but adults should be able to back up their opinions. Not just dissolve in tears.

PermanentTemporary · 01/03/2023 20:29

You've stated your views. I would leave it now. Let some space happen. Maybe she is going out with someone trans, or has a trans best friend she wants to bring home. Maybe not; but it is upsetting when you are suddenly faced with the distance that has opened up between you and your childhood/parents since you left home.

Be yourself around her and park the whole issue.

(Just a reminder though that it isn't the actions of a safely ignorable fringe minority of extremists we've been talking about... it's the Ministry of Justice.)

Lcb123 · 01/03/2023 20:31

She’s entitled to her opinions as are you. If you argue about it, I wouldn’t talk about the subject.

HagoftheNorth · 01/03/2023 22:06

Onnabugeisha, if TWAW is such a reasonable and respect-worthy view, how come nobody will ever explain why? What are the characteristics that transwomen share with all women and no men? And why is it that women are not supposed to have any way of describing their sex class? How can anyone tell the difference between a transwoman who is a threat and a transwoman who isn’t? I’ve asked so often, but posters always go quiet rather than answer the questions.

AmuseBish · 01/03/2023 22:31

I second the Invisible Women book - it is eye-opening however you define (or don't) "women".

Onnabugeisha · 01/03/2023 23:05

HagoftheNorth · 01/03/2023 22:06

Onnabugeisha, if TWAW is such a reasonable and respect-worthy view, how come nobody will ever explain why? What are the characteristics that transwomen share with all women and no men? And why is it that women are not supposed to have any way of describing their sex class? How can anyone tell the difference between a transwoman who is a threat and a transwoman who isn’t? I’ve asked so often, but posters always go quiet rather than answer the questions.

What are the characteristics that transwomen share with all women and no men? It’s the sum of all characteristics, not individual ones.

why is it that women are not supposed to have any way of describing their sex class? ? The female sex does the job.

How can anyone tell the difference between a transwoman who is a threat and a transwoman who isn’t?. How do you tell the difference between any woman or man who is a threat and one who isn’t? Just apply the cues or red flags you usually use for that to transwomen and transmen.

Let me be clear, this isn’t my belief system but I can respect it.

ScrollingLeaves · 01/03/2023 23:12

Just apply the cues or red flags you usually use for that to transwomen and transmen.

My cue or red flag is both a man wearing women’s clothes in a woman’s space, and a man in a woman’s space.

bluetilt · 01/03/2023 23:16

look up on how to deal with loved ones involved in cults, there are many resources out there

as a cult survivour I did it on my own so didn’t necessarily use any materials so can’t really reccomend but you can find some good resources on Cult Education Institute though I’ve never seen them bringing up the particular situation your daughter is goinf through

Lavender14 · 01/03/2023 23:18

"For all we know is being encouraged to distance herself from us by her friends back at Uni now."

You don't know this, so I'd avoid speculating about her friends since you don't seem to know them or much of what they're about from what you've written so far.

It's very possible that your DD just disagrees with you. She will be forming her own thoughts and opinions of the world based on her experiences and I think to be fair this topic has become particularly hot and divisive recently and sometimes we can get so entrenched in the debate that its easy to forget that we're still talking about human beings who are worthy of respect and tolerance. She needs to be allowed to form her opinions over time just the same as all the rest of us, it's not your job even as her parent to tell her what she should think. That isn't encouraging critical thinking either. You are allowed to have your stance and if she initiates discussion on it then you need to think about how you're putting your points across. If it's ending up with her crying etc then I'd suggest you're taking it too far and that's what she is reaching to.

It's also very possible that she knows and cares about someone who identifies as transgender or non binary and recognises that this debate is profoundly hurtful to them (regardless of how the debate may affect others we know this to be true as well.) So she may be coming from a personal angle whereas you are possibly thinking from a theoretical perspective without an actual person you know and care about attached (I don't know you so no idea if this is the case or not- I just think it's more likely she will know someone given that young people are much more open in this respect now than a few years ago). So that's why I think you need to tread carefully. Would her friends feel welcome in your home? Would she feel confident and comfortable bringing them to visit during her summer break? If not then I think you need to reassess how you're putting your opinions across.