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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Wikipedia on "cotton ceiling"

62 replies

ZeldaFighter · 12/02/2023 20:17

This came up:

Cotton ceiling is a term referring to the marginalization of trans women face in queer sexual spaces.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11] The term was coined in 2015 by trans porn performer Drew DeVeaux, referring to the difficulties trans women experience in securing lesbian partners.[12]

Is this correct as this is not how I understood it? I thought the term was about coercion of lesbians?

OP posts:
MeanCanadianLady · 13/02/2023 05:19

In my opinion it’s a bit of a grey area. Trans women DO face marginalization in LGB spaces. Some of it is called for and some of it is not. I think it was created with good intentions in mind to describe the situations that are not called for but was poorly thought out as they clearly grew up with male privilege and have no idea about the experiences that natural born women go through.

To lesbians and bisexual women it’s symbolic of sexual coercion and rightfully so. As trans identifying male people who have dark intentions took that and ran with it and used it as ammunition against women.

CoastalHeart · 13/02/2023 05:35

Good intentions would be discussing the difficulties in dating/having sexual relationships while trans and how to cope with these struggles, not falling into the homophobic BS that came out of that workshop.

But it’s well known the person who came up with the concept was bent out of shape because lesbians involved in the porn industry didn’t want to have scenes with them. I saw the immediate aftermath that happened after this workshop came to light, there was never any good intentions beyond acting as a way to coerce and guilt trip lesbians. It’s been a poisoned concept from the very start.

MeanCanadianLady · 13/02/2023 05:43

CoastalHeart · 13/02/2023 05:35

Good intentions would be discussing the difficulties in dating/having sexual relationships while trans and how to cope with these struggles, not falling into the homophobic BS that came out of that workshop.

But it’s well known the person who came up with the concept was bent out of shape because lesbians involved in the porn industry didn’t want to have scenes with them. I saw the immediate aftermath that happened after this workshop came to light, there was never any good intentions beyond acting as a way to coerce and guilt trip lesbians. It’s been a poisoned concept from the very start.

I see. I did not watch the video so you very well may be right. Perhaps I am giving them too much credit. It’s sad that they see things that way. It’s an unfortunate reality that I think many trans people don’t think through when they transition. The fact is that most people are sexually attracted to people who’s gender aligns with their birth sex. That can’t be changed and they need to come to terms with that. Trying to force things is going down a dark path of sexual abuse.

Happylittlechicken · 13/02/2023 05:45

males with a trans identity may be marginalised in dating circles. This is not womens problem and especially not for lesbians. Using a term like ‘cotton ceiling’ to imply it is somehow womens fault no one will date these males is coercive and manipulative. Why should a lesbian sleep with a male because he claims to be a woman?

males with a trans identity must accept that ‘finding their true selves’ means they lose some things.

GromblesofGrimbledon · 13/02/2023 05:45

Securing lesbian partners.

Boke.

JellySaurus · 13/02/2023 07:40

Trans people marginalised in LGB spaces of the sex they ID into?

Of course they are - they don't belong there! Why should anybody centre an invader or coloniser?

Created with good intentions?

Scheming how to get into the pants of someone who does not want you there, describing lack of consent as a barrier to be broken through, those are not in any way good intentions. Those are malign.

That can’t be changed and they need to come to terms with that.

Like their sex.

Redebs · 13/02/2023 08:39

Another awful idea occurred to me on this bizarre issue: maybe a man who coerces a lesbian into a relationship isn't going to have a risk of her being unfaithful to him with another man. Of course she's potentially going to seek another woman, but many men don't consider sex without the presence of a phallus as genuine.

I'm trying to understand motives in men wanting access to lesbians. Every possibility is nasty.

RoyalCorgi · 13/02/2023 08:51

The term "cotton ceiling" really wasn't created with good intentions in mind. This is all about men coercing women into having sex with them by guilt-tripping them. It's another manifestation of the Andrew Tate phenomenon. To put it at its kindest, the term "cotton ceiling" is ludicrous. But worse than that, it is a deeply misogynistic term that embodies rape culture. The idea that it has any sort of traction at all amongst wellbeing people is disturbing.

BenCoopersSupportWren · 13/02/2023 13:22

Redebs · 13/02/2023 08:39

Another awful idea occurred to me on this bizarre issue: maybe a man who coerces a lesbian into a relationship isn't going to have a risk of her being unfaithful to him with another man. Of course she's potentially going to seek another woman, but many men don't consider sex without the presence of a phallus as genuine.

I'm trying to understand motives in men wanting access to lesbians. Every possibility is nasty.

The motivation of TW in wanting to date lesbians is because it’s the ultimate validation of themselves as women. As usual, the woman in question is merely a prop for a male without any recognition of her by the latter as a full human with her own agency, wishes, dreams and desires.

nilsmousehammer · 13/02/2023 13:34

Yeah this is rather like re framing the French Revolution as an incident where the aristocracy solved their marginalisation by voluntarily shortening themselves by a head.

GromblesofGrimbledon · 13/02/2023 13:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Thelnebriati · 13/02/2023 13:51

There was a workshop called 'Overcoming The Cotton Ceiling’. The term may have been coined as a parody of the term 'the glass ceiling' (a structural bias against women progressing in the workplace.)
grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/overcoming-the-cotton-ceiling-annotated

Its yet another example of men claiming they are oppressed and victimised by women's boundaries, which is at least one of the rules of misogyny.

Greyfelt · 13/02/2023 13:52

The term "ceiling" is used to describe the "difficulty transwomen face" in trying to have sex with lesbians (which they interpret as something they should be able to expect because they are true women). Based on the term "glass ceiling" - the difficulty women face in trying to get promoted beyond a certain level. The term is already written from the perspective of transwomen. Lesbians who don't want to have sex with transwomen are trying to keep the "cotton ceiling" in place.

Circumferences · 13/02/2023 13:54

Just wrap your head around the fact that some people genuinely think they can be "marginalized in a sexual space".
Getting your dick wet is not a human right.

If you can't get laid by the person your attracted to, that is simply not what "marginalized" means.

NecessaryScene · 14/02/2023 07:46

Here's a collection of dozens of examples of it in use, mostly around 2015, many from Drew DeVeaux.

terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/

And don't forget that BBC article on it from the end of 2021, which got a lot of people very upset due to too much sunlight. That's got interviews with lots of women on the receiving end.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-57853385

Signalbox · 14/02/2023 08:02

WolfFoxHare · 12/02/2023 20:18

It is. Edit it.

Wikipedia is completely ideologically captured. I don’t think an edit would implying coercion of lesbians would stand for more than a day.

ExiledElsie · 14/02/2023 08:19

I'm staggered that anyone can think that Wikipedia definition of cotton ceiling is anything other than implying coercion.

"referring to the difficulties trans women experience in securing lesbian partners"

I suppose it doesn't make it explicit that the cotton ceiling refers to women's pants. But of course lesbians aren't interested in men, so it can only be a coercive situation.

NonnyMouse1337 · 14/02/2023 08:32

"referring to the difficulties trans women experience in securing lesbian partners"

a.k.a heterosexual men whinging that lesbians won't 'try some dick'.

NecessaryScene · 14/02/2023 09:02

a.k.a heterosexual men whinging that lesbians won't 'try some dick'.

And if there's any doubt in your mind about that, read that terfisaslur collection - pages of such whinging.

WolfFoxHare · 14/02/2023 09:05

Signalbox · 14/02/2023 08:02

Wikipedia is completely ideologically captured. I don’t think an edit would implying coercion of lesbians would stand for more than a day.

Show quote history

True. And then they'd probably lock the article too. Ho hum.

JellySaurus · 14/02/2023 09:35

"referring to the difficulties trans women experience in securing lesbian partners"

Weird choice of words. I can't remember any woman I've known (or any of the men I've been friends with, either) or any non-trolly threads here, ever using that sort of language. It's always 'finding a partner' or 'meeting someone', or similar.

Talking about 'securing a partner' would make me very uncomfortable. It's a willy-waving red flag for one-sided behaviour of a person who only takes account of their own wishes and desires.

Massive turn-off.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 14/02/2023 09:36

Oof. Forget Wikipedia. It's chat GPT that needs educating. Misogyny and lesbophobia are rife. It does not even pretend to be neutral.

nilsmousehammer · 14/02/2023 09:54

"referring to the difficulties trans women experience in securing lesbian partners"

Hence the ridiculous attempt to delete and hide that 'breaking through a ceiling' made of cotton referred to anything but ways to get past the barriers of a certain part of lesbian clothing.

It doesn't matter how you dress it up: it's absolutely bloody awful in concept, in utter disrespect for homosexuality and women, and in absolute lack of capacity to view a sexual partner as any kind of human being. See also the instructions to lesbians that they could 'learn to cope' with straight sex if they tried, and it was a social duty to 'overcome their genital bias' to avoid the horror of saying no to male people.

Hiding this? Trying to erase it? There's evidence all over this place that this is exactly what it is, reality cannot be altered by not saying the words and trying to prevent other people saying it. If it's raising negative publicity for those who originate the concept? Then that needs facing and addressing. Not trying to force everyone else to pretend it didn't happen. There's a lot of repair work that this political movement needs to do with female people.

Datun · 14/02/2023 09:56

GromblesofGrimbledon · 13/02/2023 05:45

Securing lesbian partners.

Boke.

Leaps off the page doesn't it. Boke indeed.

ArabellaScott · 14/02/2023 09:59

RoyalCorgi · 13/02/2023 08:51

The term "cotton ceiling" really wasn't created with good intentions in mind. This is all about men coercing women into having sex with them by guilt-tripping them. It's another manifestation of the Andrew Tate phenomenon. To put it at its kindest, the term "cotton ceiling" is ludicrous. But worse than that, it is a deeply misogynistic term that embodies rape culture. The idea that it has any sort of traction at all amongst wellbeing people is disturbing.

This.

The phrase 'glass ceiling' represented something that needed to be 'broken through', of course. The term 'cotton ceiling' suggests barriers to accessing women's bodies need to be 'broken through'.

It's one of the most offensive and grotesque things I've ever heard.