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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Drag Queens, are they outright offensive?

219 replies

Sophds · 11/02/2023 23:06

Now I’ve never been the biggest feminist, I know that’s probably not the best way to characterise myself on a feminism board but I don’t want to quickly be dismissed as wrapped up in groupthink.

Read about todays protest at the tate modern against drag queen story hour and I’ve not read enough in to the story hour thing to have a strong informed opinion about that specifically it got me thinking aren’t drag queens just a misogynist version of black face?

I’ve never really thought too much about it and have never really had an issue with drag queens but now I just feel like something doesn’t sit right with me about men dressing up with hugely caricatured female features and caricatured stereotypical female behaviours that often cross over in to overt sexualisation.

I just feel like the entire idea of drag is to caricature and degrade women? Does anybody else feel like this?

OP posts:
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doadeer · 12/02/2023 15:24

I did a lot on homosexuality at uni and masters on a similar topic. The early "molly houses" of the eighteenth century, illegal spots where gay men would socialise involved what I see as early Drag Queens, they would dress as women and re-enact marriage scenes and popular female rites of passage etc. From all I read and studied, this was an act subversive to the patriarchy it wasn't about ridiculing women. It was about not conforming to masculine identity which was extremely rigid.

Somewhere in the 20th century this has really shifted and it doesn't feel like it's two fingers up to the straight patriarchy it's really feeding negative stereotypes of women, ridiculing their behaviour (panto dames I'm thinking here). It's such a shift.

EndlessTea · 12/02/2023 15:33

It’s not just the kid’s interpretation of drag queens. It’s what is in side the minds of the drag queens themselves. Again, do you know any normal man who would willingly dress in a mini skirt and lipstick to spend time with other people’s small children?

I agree. It’s very dodgy, children’s entertaining attracts a lot of nonces, so you absolutely need watertight safeguarding, but there are going to be DQs who see it as a paid gig, and aren’t wanting to do it for predatory reasons. It can be really lovely working with kids, and a lot of actors make their money as children’s entertainers, doing parties, etc.

The thing is, I know for myself, that it wasn’t until I had children myself that I really understood how innocent children are. I grew up gradually being exposed to more and more adult stuff and spending less and less time around children or even being any part of their world. If someone had kids, I didn’t really know what to do or say around them and my everyday life was full of swearing, obscene jokes, sarcasm and dark comments. Thinking about it now I wouldn’t want my pre-mother self anywhere around my kids tbh. i was definitely under an illusion that children were mini-adults.

I think this illusion probably is why people can’t see it’s a bad idea.

How can children even concentrate on the story if there is so much visual noise? Which comes back to what is the point of it all?

It’s political isn’t it? There’s this thing about ‘anti-bullying’. For some reason, it seems like the propagandists think only homosexual people ever experienced bullying and if you stop people bullying homosexuals, then all the bullying in the world that matters will stop.

It’s obviously a load of bollocks. Kids are bullied for just about everything. Kids can be nasty little gits.

So the rationale is to normalise gender-bending with kids by DQST, so those kids don’t turn into bullies. No thought about how it’s sexualised and inappropriate it is.

Its a ridiculous idea cooked up in the minds of self-interested people who don’t know kids at all, what is or isn’t appropriate around them, and who don’t give a shit about anyone bullied for any other reason. Well that’s the best, least nefarious reason.

nepeta · 12/02/2023 18:30

Most of the online discussion I have seen on the drag queen story hours for children has been of the same type as in this thread, i.e., asking if they are a bad thing and why.

It might be more interesting to have a similar discussion about why some really push very hard to have these drag queen story hours, i.e., what they give as their reasons.

The only one I have read more than once is that this is about being inclusive and teaching children to be accepting of LGBetc individuals. The question, then, would be to ask in what ways dressing as a drag queen is representative of that whole large heterogeneous group of people. Do drag queens appropriately depict them? What proportion?

And I would then ask why not invite Lesbian firefighters to read to children or gay astrophysicists and so on? Or if this is all about including marginalised groups more widely, why not have disabled engineers or bakers etc. come and read to children, or the elderly?

If the assumption is that drag queens are comedic characters and children will enjoy that, we are then back a full circle into asking the question why the joke must be on one half of humankind. I would also love to know why this is now something the progressive left and so many feminists support.

But I have been given a partial answer to that some years ago when feminists were debating 'blackface' vs. 'womanface'. Some saw the two as the same (both were argued to be jokes and a form of punching downward), but many did not.

Their argument was that drag is done by gay men and they ranked gay men above women in the oppression hierarchy. So from their point of view gay men are punching upward...

Backstreets · 12/02/2023 18:34

They’re a grand thing in underground gay clubs performing for other gay men with the same pop cultural and sexual references. A disaster as children’s entertainment.
RuPaul’s Drag Race (and some lesser known grifters) have a lot to answer for.

heathspeedwell · 12/02/2023 18:43

If it's ok for gay men to dress up as women and laugh at us because gay men are oppressed, then is it ok for people from a racial minority to dress up as disabled people to laugh at them?

There are nine protected characteristics. Why is this behaviour only ok when it's women who are in the firing line?

GailBlancheViola · 12/02/2023 18:52

nepeta · 12/02/2023 18:30

Most of the online discussion I have seen on the drag queen story hours for children has been of the same type as in this thread, i.e., asking if they are a bad thing and why.

It might be more interesting to have a similar discussion about why some really push very hard to have these drag queen story hours, i.e., what they give as their reasons.

The only one I have read more than once is that this is about being inclusive and teaching children to be accepting of LGBetc individuals. The question, then, would be to ask in what ways dressing as a drag queen is representative of that whole large heterogeneous group of people. Do drag queens appropriately depict them? What proportion?

And I would then ask why not invite Lesbian firefighters to read to children or gay astrophysicists and so on? Or if this is all about including marginalised groups more widely, why not have disabled engineers or bakers etc. come and read to children, or the elderly?

If the assumption is that drag queens are comedic characters and children will enjoy that, we are then back a full circle into asking the question why the joke must be on one half of humankind. I would also love to know why this is now something the progressive left and so many feminists support.

But I have been given a partial answer to that some years ago when feminists were debating 'blackface' vs. 'womanface'. Some saw the two as the same (both were argued to be jokes and a form of punching downward), but many did not.

Their argument was that drag is done by gay men and they ranked gay men above women in the oppression hierarchy. So from their point of view gay men are punching upward...

Yes, @nepeta.

GailBlancheViola · 12/02/2023 18:53

heathspeedwell · 12/02/2023 18:43

If it's ok for gay men to dress up as women and laugh at us because gay men are oppressed, then is it ok for people from a racial minority to dress up as disabled people to laugh at them?

There are nine protected characteristics. Why is this behaviour only ok when it's women who are in the firing line?

Misogyny in all it's glory.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 12/02/2023 19:34

TPTB that run the guardian are really making sure they atone for the sin of vaguely suggesting that just maybe letting a male rapist into a woman’s prison wasn’t ok

yesterday a fluff piece on Bergdorf

today Aida tells us they’re helping children find their true selvesLink

Probablymagrat · 12/02/2023 19:44

I find them offensive, but thats fine, I know that I don't have a right to go through life being unoffended.

I also find them not very funny, and would not pay to see a drag show. And thats also fine, if you do find them funny or entertaining , then go and see them. Thats your right to do so.

What I do find unacceptable is them trying to indoctrinate children to their political views which in turn will impact on the rights of women and girls. I also don't like childten witnessing their overly sexualoised appearance and 'banter'. I think that drag acts should be over 18s only because of this.

Sophds · 12/02/2023 20:42

VoodooQualities · 12/02/2023 12:48

Some of us have referred to a photo of a drag queen with an erection around children. Is that the photo that Oldcrone posted on page 4 of this thread? Because that doesn't look like an erection to me.

Trousers inappropriately tight to be around children yes. 'Normalising the bulge' as Dylan would say, yes (yuck). But visibly aroused with erect penis, no.

Wouldn’t that be like policing a teacher with a low cut top or someone with their yoga pants too tight?

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 12/02/2023 21:45

Sophds · Today 20:42
Wouldn’t that be like policing a teacher with a low cut top or someone with their yoga pants too tight?

Not really. I gather you haven’t seen the photo (which is not the one on page 4).

If a teacher were to wear inappropriate clothes, they would be asked to dress differently no doubt.

RichardBarrister · 13/02/2023 09:49

If a teacher were to wear inappropriate clothes, they would be asked to dress differently no doubt.

Yes, teacher’s appearances are very much policed. Our school has a strict ‘business dress’ policy for teachers and no low cut, revealing or otherwise inappropriate clothing would be tolerated.

There is no benefit for children to be subjected to DQSH. I am quite amazed at the shocking number of safeguarding issues that are just waved away on this topic. We have seen DQs post porn on their social media, make extremely sexualised jokes in front of large numbers of children, some even have names that are inappropriate (like Flo Job) and that’s without considering the unacceptable physical contact they have with children, allowing them in several cases to touch the DQs genital area.

How many red flags do the organisations that hire these men need?

OldCrone · 13/02/2023 10:24

If a teacher were to wear inappropriate clothes, they would be asked to dress differently no doubt.

Unless they identify as trans, in which case they can do what they want.

reduxx.info/ontario-high-school-teacher-seen-wearing-massive-prosthetic-bust-to-teach/

MadamAndTheAnts · 13/02/2023 10:27

drag queens are totally fine.

RichardBarrister · 13/02/2023 11:37

What I do find unacceptable is them trying to indoctrinate children to their political views which in turn will impact on the rights of women and girls. I also don't like childten witnessing their overly sexualoised appearance and 'banter'. I think that drag acts should be over 18s only because of this.

Exactly this. Also, the DQ in question at the Tate apparently wants to be a role model for children.

He is currently fundraising for his friend who died. His friend was another DQ who was convicted of four child rapes and was constantly attempting to get jobs that would allow him access to children.

The Tate DQ is currently the most high profile representative of DQSH. If he is the best on offer, what are the worst like?

TheBiologyStupid · 13/02/2023 11:38

Theeyeballsinthesky · 12/02/2023 19:34

TPTB that run the guardian are really making sure they atone for the sin of vaguely suggesting that just maybe letting a male rapist into a woman’s prison wasn’t ok

yesterday a fluff piece on Bergdorf

today Aida tells us they’re helping children find their true selvesLink

I wrote to The Guardian the other day questioning the balance of their coverage of Aida H Dee and including a link to the recent Reduxx article. It's clearly had no effect: "Rest In Power!" : Drag Queen Story Hour UK Founder Fundraising For Convicted Child Sex Offender's Funeral - archive.ph/94HGd

ScrollingLeaves · 13/02/2023 11:54

The Guardian is the guardian of trans rights activists and queer theorists.

ScrollingLeaves · 13/02/2023 12:28

Graham Linehan Substack about Aida H.Dee a year ago.
grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/can-people-just-chill-with-all-the

This was on that same Graham Linehan’s Substack about Aida H. Dee. It is about indoctrinating children with Queer Theory and Critical Race Theory. I have used bold for the queer theory parts. The writer is evidently American, but this all comes from America and it is enlightening for the U.K. context too.

James Lindsay, most badass intellectual
July 2023
This seems like it's coming out of nowhere, but it's based in a conversation I had with someone earlier explaining an important aspect of Woke culture that many of us perceive but few understand. One of the targets that Woke culture wants to dismantle is the innocence of children

The most obvious way Wokeness goes after the innocence of children is in the Queer variant of trans activism, especially by having trans strippers perform for children in schools, for example. Why would they do this?

The belief is that the innocence we encourage in children is part of the systems of power (specifically generated through performativity) that enforce heteronormativity and cisnormativity and thus lead to dysphoria or oppression of gay and potentially trans kids

The logic isn't terribly complicated: there might be gay or trans kids in the class, say, who would be more comfortable in their sexual identity (if that makes sense for a kid -- it doesn't) and gender identity if they saw disruptions to the usual "binaries" being celebrated.

The disruption is simple: exhibition of sexuality, especially Queer sexualities and trans people demonstrating sexuality. The (cultural) prohibition on this behavior is usually put as "childhood innocence," which is viewed as a dominant discourse that enforces normativities

Sexualizing children's spaces is therefore a "logical" consequence of queering both spaces and childhood in order to "liberate the potentialities" of children's identities, and it requires the disruption of childhood innocence. That is, it's righteous Queer activism.

This applies in Critical Race Theory too, though not quite so coarsely. There, white privilege allegedly contains something called "white innocence," which is taken to be something white (and white-adjacent and white-passing) children are socialized into.

The (racial) innocence of children is therefore taken to be a kind of social breeding ground for a culture of "white supremacy." It's where children are allegedly socialized into Charles Mills' very conspiratorial "racial contract" that maintains white supremacy.

As Critical Race Theory asserts that anything that maintains white racial comfort is "suspect," the racial innocence of childhood (in not-racist environments) is considered to be a serious problematic that makes room for white supremacy culture. It must be intervened upon.

In this case, intervention is through projects like "Anti-racist Baby" and the likes, i.e., teaching the Critical perspective on race as early as possible, i.e., teaching children not to be racially innocent (a white privilege) and more "racially aware." There's no time to lose.

Of course, CRT is more insidious here while Queer Theory is more flagrantly inappropriate. CRT insists that racial innocence is, because of the operation of whiteness, only available for white (passing) people, though others will covet it and act white or take up white adjacency.

That is, CRT argues that racial innocence (in young children) is a privilege afforded only to white (passing) people, and therefore, rather than aiming to expand it (which it deems impossible), it seeks to obliterate it to put everyone on equitable footing.

As a last point, the innocence of children, thus the opposite of that in adults, sets up its own power dynamic that the Critical Theory of education sees as illegitimate and in need of disruption. Children cannot be innocent if they are to be co-equal with instructors or...

more to point, able to use their "oppressed" status as children (in an adult's world) to be elevated to instructor status over the teachers ("I learned more from my students than they learned from me"). It's less overt here, but childhood innocence is problematic here too.

This last point becomes an additional soft spot through which Queer and trans performative activism and "racial literacy" racist activism makes its way into obliterating childhood innocence in the name of "Social Justice." This is better known as "child abuse."

In sum, you're not wrong to perceive that there's a Woke war on the innocence of childhood, which is seen as an enculturating tool of oppression by dominant and hegemonic discourses and structures. These must be disrupted. Children can't be innocent; they must be activists
(my bold)

nepeta · 13/02/2023 17:19

This thread made me imagine what would happen if GC feminist women created a story time tour for children, called The Manly Man Story Hour Tour, in which women would create dehumanising and ridiculing representations based on various stereotypes about men, and then were invited to read to small children in libraries and museums and schools etc.

The drag kings are not the same thing at all. They are like the ladies' auxiliary to drag queens. I'm thinking of putting together plumber's crack, beer burping, groin scratching etc.

Even when I imagined various skits, I felt a little guilty and bad as I don't see men that way. But what the drag queens are doing is exactly the same, though to be a perfect mirror The Manly Men would all have to be played by Lesbians.

Would parents take their small children to see that?

ComfortablyDazed · 13/02/2023 23:02

This ^^ is such a good way of looking at it, and really draws into stark reality what’s happening.

No-one would want to watch gay women portraying the stereotypical worst of male-kind. And they certainly wouldn’t proffer up their kids to have stories read by them.

The double standard is remarkable.

TeamadIshbel · 13/02/2023 23:19

My sense is that originally it was a form of entertainment amongst gay men who were rebelling against the bullying they endured around being 'feminine'. So, they dressed up as a send up and a fuck you to bullies.

But, now it has become exactly as OP describes. Keep drag in the clubs, for adults only. Get it out mainstream culture and FFS start embracing diversity of masculinity and femininity and STOP transing as conversion for gay kids.

Loosky · 14/02/2023 07:32

Yes I think you’re right @TeamadIshbel. There is a history/side to drag which isn’t misogynistic - it’s a reaction to the patriarchal idea that men cannot like ‘feminine’ things and must be typically masculine. In this form of drag the exaggerated costumes and makeup aren’t necessarily laughing at women they’re laughing at femininity and masculinity- ie saying it’s all a costume anyway so let’s go for it. It’s only woman face if you think women are defined as makeup and heels. I don’t recognise myself in a drag costume so don’t feel mimicked by it.

But there’s definitely also a side to drag which is overtly misogynistic such as the fish jokes and disgust at women’s bodies. This seems to be more prominent recently although it may be I’ve just become aware of it. My take on this is that something originally subversive has morphed into something which promotes the same old patriarchal/misogynistic nonsense. That happens quite a lot with subversive art forms, they get appropriated by the powerful thing they start off criticising.

That’s a separate issue to sexualised content round children which is clearly dodgy. But doesn’t mean that all drag is perverted or men wearing typically women’s clothes is always disrespectful. I have an issue when men think wearing women’s clothes is the same as being a woman. Drag is the opposite.

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 14/02/2023 07:47

It's womanface. It's as acceptable as blackface. As justifiable as blackface. As respectful as blackface.

It shouldn't happen.

TwoLeftSocksWithHoles · 14/02/2023 08:03

@OnlyTheWeedsGrow

Google “rainbow dildo butt monkey”...

I had assumed this was going to give a location with a greater precision than 'what3words' and suggested it to my granny as she sometimes seems to get lost within the grounds of the home, but no it's not that at all!

Mind you Granny seems to like it and won't give me my iPad back.

Ilovecleaning · 15/05/2023 12:22

I don’t see the point of Drag Queen Story Time. I mean - why? What’s it for? I just think it deserves an eye roll 🙄 and a ‘Oh, fuck off’ followed by sigh …