Drag Queens, are they outright offensive?

[Sophds]

Now I’ve never been the biggest feminist, I know that’s probably not the best way to characterise myself on a feminism board but I don’t want to quickly be dismissed as wrapped up in groupthink.

Read about todays protest at the tate modern against drag queen story hour and I’ve not read enough in to the story hour thing to have a strong informed opinion about that specifically it got me thinking aren’t drag queens just a misogynist version of black face?

I’ve never really thought too much about it and have never really had an issue with drag queens but now I just feel like something doesn’t sit right with me about men dressing up with hugely caricatured female features and caricatured stereotypical female behaviours that often cross over in to overt sexualisation.

I just feel like the entire idea of drag is to caricature and degrade women? Does anybody else feel like this?

I've always found men in drag repulsive and disturbing.

More recently, I realised that they are a part of institutionalised misogyny.

Womanface is offensive, threatening and insulting.

I think people have a right to be offensive and be offended.

I also think drag queens are adult entertainment and belong in age restricted environments such as nightclubs.

It’s weird and suspicious to target little kiddies.

Yes. Absolutely.

That's the polyamoury flag...

They exist for entertainment purposes. You either like their take on comedy or you don’t. It’s all tongue in cheek.

But children don't know it's tongue in cheek.

Then I saw pictures, not only of rainbow dildo butt monkey but of some other drag Queen, reading stories to children whilst having a clearly visible erection.

That drag queen was probably Aida H Dee, who was reading stories to children at the Tate yesterday.

According to the Daily Mail and the Guardian, objecting to this makes us right wing.

“That's the polyamoury flag”

And a very ill conceived flag at that, considering the ties of PIE. I realise polyamoury starts with a p but what other group starts with a p that is wedging their way into that umbrella?

Ill-conceived it might be, I wouldn't disagree with that, but it's been the polyamoury flag for quite some time as far as I know and it's not a new thing. I believe in recent years there has been a push from some people to change the flag to something different.

It's still disingenuous (and probably libellous) in the extreme to imply that someone is a paedophile because they have a polyamoury flag on a book cover.

Yes. The above post is a prime example.

Drag as we know it basically originated in 1960s/70s US gay culture (but has earlier documented and very unpleasant roots in Minstrel shows so I'd definitely hesitate to call it light entertainment).

Simplified history of women in theatre. Women were not allowed to act on stage in ancient Greece. Although women did originally act in Kabuki theatre, they were banned in the early part of the 17th century while the tradition was still was still relatively new. Hence in both any female characters had to be played by men. In England, it was illegal for women to act until the latter part of the 17th century (almost the reverse of what happened in Kabuki) so again female characters were played by men. It was a similar pattern across Europe eg women were banned from the stage in Spain and although actresses worked in France in the early 17th century they were considered to be immoral women.

Pantomime dames weren't mentioned surprisingly which is good as they are yet another theatrical type, the Harlequinade, which comes from the Italian Commedia Dell'arte with influences from the English (and Roman etc) tradition of Misrule. The British tradition of comedy female impersonation is a more modern development of this and predates drag.

But back to the quoted post - as a feminist myself I am very conscious of the postmodern reimagination of the history of (I quote) 'men in makeup' as being a glorious theatrical tradition going back thousands of years could be read as a celebration of the time when women were banned from the stage. Further parallels to be drawn there with other aspects of women in public life I think.

My post was deleted but I know I speak the truth.

Having seen the way particular phrases and other cues have been allowed into educational tool kits, and high fashion photo shoots, I would not be sure that this was a move that was not orchestrated either for controversy or for other purposes.

I really would put it past this author to not be using the flag at the very least to raise awareness.

I used to like drag acts, it felt like they were poking fun at the stereotypes rather than the reality of being an actual woman. It was often gay men who had been mocked for being effeminate basically sticking two fingers up at society for their daft judgements. As a women who felt judged for not conforming to these stereotypes, it felt like we were on the same side.

However, as it's moved mainstream the net now covers the bitter men, the incel types who hate women and think they are better women than women are.

It is sad for the gay community that this has been ruined, in the same way that the TRA movement has made life worse for the dysphoric, traumatised by homophobia, mtf transitioner. They opened the doors too wide, so that people with loads of prejudices came in under the progressive banner and ruined it for everyone but themselves.

I do t think they HAVE to be be. But they mostly choose to be.

Yep, direct parallel with 'black face'.

Yes. Very offensive.

If anyone thinks drag is a 'celebration' of womanhood, can you please explain why women are referred to as fish?

Why are so many drag acts named specifically to mock women's bodies and the fact that we love our children? Off the top of my head I can think of Miss Carraige, Anna Bortion, Molestia Child and at least two queens named after murdered children.

And as for drag being suitable for children, Aida HD's visible erection is even more troubling when you think that most drag acts go to the trouble to tape their dicks so as not to spoil the outline of their costume. Why has he chosen not to follow this tradition?

You claim to be a feminist but hold Ancient Greece and traditional Japan up as societies we shouldn't criticise for the way the viewed and treated women? Really? Ignorance on these threads is about right.

Like many of us here, I came into the 'gender' question thinking in a vague and wooly way that it was analogous to gay rights, and found out more and more about the deeply intolerant, oppressive, and exploitative but profitable background. I used to be all about 'call people what they want to be called'.

Not any more. This is womanface, it is as unacceptable as blackface, and should not be performed in public, at pantomimes, or anywhere else. I am no longer prepared to refer to it by its chosen name 'drag'.

NB 'in public' does not preclude acts at private clubs for members of those clubs.

Yes. I’ve yet to see a drag act that didn’t look as though they were taking the piss out of women.

Utterly offensive.

I just feel like the entire idea of drag is to caricature and degrade women? Does anybody else feel like this?

Yes. And I think the current political context makes it different from the pantomime dame/Dame Edna stuff of the past. It’s gone from being something that was just a bit silly to making a very deliberate statement.

Didn’t men perform as women because it wasn’t safe for women to be on stage or travel? No safety was not the origin. The Greek origin was cultural in that acting was a public performance and women were restricted to the private sphere of the home. Later on, this culture was adopted by the early Christians and acquired a religious wrapping to keep women restricted out of public life and within the cage of private life.

Women travelled constantly back then, even though it was less safe. But the greater danger in history for travelling had nothing to do with why women were barred from acting.

Have you been to many then? What’s your sample size? (Exclude OTT TV shows like Ru Paul’s Drag Race as that’s not real drag).

Early Christian women had massively more freedom and leeway than women in traditional Greek, Roman or Jewish society. It was one of the things that fuelled objections to Christian communities.

Like European protestants post-reformation being so hostile to religious communities of women, who owned land and property, made independent decisions, and were educated and literate. Can't have that sort of thing.

I don't need a large sample (above one example) to know blackface performance is offensive (I can remember when it was on TV).

I don't need a large sample (above one example) to know womanface performance is offensive (I hope to live to see a time when it isn't on TV).