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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Help with response to workplace policy

27 replies

TissueFace · 08/02/2023 09:39

I work for a government department (I won’t name them) and a document has been shared for feedback and I need some help wording my response.

The document outlines the departments approach to Gender Identity and Intersex Policy.

Under the title “Gender expression at work” the guidance says “All individuals have the right to express their identity at work and present in their gender. This could mean using single sex toilets and other facilities appropriate to the presentation of their gender”

Under the title “Facilities” the guidance says “It is assumed that the individual knows which facilities are the best match for their gender identity and expression. Individuals should not be asked to use gender neutral facilities, it is completely their choice”

We only have single sex toilets in our office. Unlike some government offices we have not switched to unisex toilets. I am not comfortable with sharing the women’s toilets with men and based on the wording of this document anyone can use any facilities. I assume this extends to the showers and changing rooms in the gym.

The document also lists some useful external resources including a link to Stonewall. I was under the impression that central government no longer worked with Stonewall. Is that not correct?

On the plus side, the document says “[insert department name] acknowledges that some employees may believe that a person’s biological sex is immutable and does not consider such a belief to be incompatible with a working environment that is free from bullying, harassment and discrimination. Employees that hold such a belief are entitled to expect that they will not be bullied, harassed or discriminated against for holding those beliefs in the same way that they must ensure their behavior in the workplace does not amount to bullying, harassment or discrimination of transgender people.”

OP posts:
MrsOvertonsWindow · 08/02/2023 09:52

It never stops does it OP - the relentless withdrawing of women's rights.
I'm in a rush but this is what you need I think:

sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Toilets-matter.pdf

I'd also suggest contacting Sex Matters directly and asking for help? We know that trans extremist groups are well embedded in the civil service, using it as a trojan horse to remove women's rights without democratic scrutiny. I suspect that publicity (doesn't have to come from you) is the one thing that might stop this?

NancyDrawed · 08/02/2023 09:54

It might be useful for you to contact Sex Matters

sex-matters.org/

It must be really daunting to think about raising this with your employer, but what they seem to be saying is that Gender Identity and Expression trump Sex in the workplace and that is incorrect

Shelefttheweb · 08/02/2023 10:04

We only have single sex toilets in our office. Unlike some government offices we have not switched to unisex toilets.

No, you have mixed sex toilets in your office.

Vebrithien · 08/02/2023 10:05

Also worth pointing out that sex is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act, but gender and gender identity is not.

Likewise, there is no legal definition of gender, and the various definitions from the UK government, Stonewall and the WHO differ, but all have an agreement that gender is a social construct, which may be understood differently by different cultures. This may mean that using gender rather than sex, they are directly discriminating against people from a different race or culture (another protected characteristic), people with learning disabilities (a third protected characteristic) and also against the religion and beliefs of other people (a forth protected characteristic).

Whereas sex is biological, and dimorphic.

maddy68 · 08/02/2023 10:09

They are asking for feedback. If you are uncomfortable with them using single sex toilets then you must say.

You shouldn't feel excluded in order to include others.

Unisex toilets should be offered

croupy · 08/02/2023 10:11

Nightmare! It’s bad enough in a public toilet / gym but to have to go to work with penises in the women’s showers is so wrong.

LoobiJee · 08/02/2023 10:12

I would be inclined to ask them questions.

“I note that it is X’s employment policy that ‘all employees have a right to gender expression at work’. Could you define ‘gender expression’? Could you also send me a copy of X department’s policy on ‘employees’ right to privacy from the opposite biological sex when in a state of undress’ and on ‘employees’ right to single sex facilities when using the toilet’, thanks in advance.”

MarkWithaC · 08/02/2023 10:22

I'd ask questions too.
Ask your question about Stonewall. (I don't know the answer for sure but think maybe it's the House of Commons that's left?)
And ask about single-sex toilets in relation to the exemptions allowed under the Equality Act. Don't tell them which exemptions; make them do the work (or watch them try to weasel out of it).
Definitely ask if the single-sex facilities thing extends to the showers and changing rooms.

Justme56 · 08/02/2023 10:27

If you’re on Twitter have a look at the latest puregym issue. Woman walks out of shower straight into a man. They have unisex changing rooms but also say they are single sex (complete confusion). Thousands of retweets/comments etc from angry women and men.

lookslikeabombhitit · 08/02/2023 10:28

Why are they lumping "intersex" in with gender identity? It has absolutely nothing to do with gender. A good portion of people with variations/ disorders of sexual development (vsd/dsd) find the term intersex offensive and othering. There are only two sexes and people with vsd/dsd are either male or female. Intersex isn't a gender.

Beowulfa · 08/02/2023 10:32

You can ask if they've conducted an equality impact assessment with regards to female employees whose religion requires single sex toilet facilities. Remind them that religion is a protected characteristic under the 2010 Equality Act.

TissueFace · 08/02/2023 10:55

Beowulfa · 08/02/2023 10:32

You can ask if they've conducted an equality impact assessment with regards to female employees whose religion requires single sex toilet facilities. Remind them that religion is a protected characteristic under the 2010 Equality Act.

The specifics say that HR have conducted an Equality Impact Assessment prior to the launch of this policy, and they give an email contact if anyone wants to know more about it. I will ask for a copy.

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LoobiJee · 08/02/2023 11:47

Another thing to look at is their workforce diversity targets - do they have targets relating to increasing recruitment from under-represented groups? If so, ask them if their recruitment materials to be used when seeking to encourage women from under-represented groups to apply will in future make clear to prospective applicants that single sex female toilets have been withdrawn and that all toilets are multiple-user mixed-sex facilities.

TissueFace · 08/02/2023 11:56

LoobiJee · 08/02/2023 11:47

Another thing to look at is their workforce diversity targets - do they have targets relating to increasing recruitment from under-represented groups? If so, ask them if their recruitment materials to be used when seeking to encourage women from under-represented groups to apply will in future make clear to prospective applicants that single sex female toilets have been withdrawn and that all toilets are multiple-user mixed-sex facilities.

Is there any evidence that not providing single sex female toilets has an impact on the recruitment of women from under represented groups? Is this argument likely to be used to remove all single sex toilets and replace them with unisex?

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Shelefttheweb · 08/02/2023 12:15

Unisex would be better, ignoring or changing the labels on toilets with cubicals and separate basins is not unisex

TissueFace · 08/02/2023 12:22

Shelefttheweb · 08/02/2023 12:15

Unisex would be better, ignoring or changing the labels on toilets with cubicals and separate basins is not unisex

In that example, unisex is better. But, in my opinion and from a hygiene perspective, the best option is separate toilets for separate sexes.

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BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 08/02/2023 13:32

TissueFace · 08/02/2023 10:55

The specifics say that HR have conducted an Equality Impact Assessment prior to the launch of this policy, and they give an email contact if anyone wants to know more about it. I will ask for a copy.

Definitely get a copy. My experience of HR deptartments' equality impact assessments is ... not good.

And check health & safety at work legislation on single sex toilets. I'll see if I can dig out a link, but I'm pretty sure they specify that single sex is preferable - but if they are mixed they need to be fully enclosed units. And what's being proposed is definitely mixed sex.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 08/02/2023 13:41

Lockable (individual) rooms required if mixed: www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/workplace-facilities/health-safety.htm

Government move to single rather than mixed facilities: www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/03/single-sex-toilets-to-be-compulsory-in-all-new-public-buildings

Sec Matters advice: sex-matters.org/posts/single-sex-services/sex-matters-influences-toilets-policy/

TissueFace · 08/02/2023 14:12

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 08/02/2023 13:41

Brilliant, thank you.

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GroggyLegs · 08/02/2023 14:22

Individuals should not be asked to use gender neutral facilities
The facilities are already gender neutral. You can brush your long femine locks or adjust your manly combat trousers in either loo - they're on about mixed sex surely?

And WTAF is that horrible 'intersex' bit about? Sounds like whoever's written it needs your help OP.

Maybe suggest the men's becomes mixed sex and they keep female toilets seperated for religious reasons, and to maintain the dignity of women who may be dealing with periods/miscarriages/ other female-only issues.

TissueFace · 08/02/2023 15:01

I’ve actually just read that. The policies are just so inconsistent.

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BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 08/02/2023 15:12

suggest the men's becomes mixed sex and they keep female toilets seperated for religious reasons, and to maintain the dignity of women who may be dealing with periods/miscarriages/ other female-only issues.

Excellent suggestion.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 08/02/2023 21:40

This might also be useful.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4738552-councils-gender-neutral-toilets-discriminated-against-female-clerk

Princessglittery · 08/02/2023 22:44

I agree forward the recent EAT assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/63d8076fd3bf7f252a730a11/Earl_Shilton_Town_Council_-v-_Ms_K_Miller__2023__EAT_5.pdf

The Equality Act 2010 under the sex protected characteristics contains a provision, where it can be justified, for employers to provide single sex spaces such as toilets. This is done to ensure employees privacy and dignity are preserved, it also significantly reduces the risk of females being sexually assaulted, harassed or being subjected to voyeurism. A 2018 Sunday Times investigation found – just under 90 per cent – of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism or harassment reported at leisure centres and public swimming pools took place in unisex facilities. Of these, sexual attacks made up 67 per cent.fairplayforwomen.com/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger/

The HSE sets out the minimum requirements for toilet provision by sex. www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/toilets.htm

The 2021 Census for England and Wales www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/genderidentity/bulletins/genderidentityenglandandwales/census2021 included a voluntary question “Is the gender you identify with the same as your sex registered at birth?”. Overall, 45.7 million (94.0% of the population aged 16 years and over) answered the question. In total, 45.4 million (93.5%) answered “Yes” and 262,000 (0.5%) answered “No”.

As the vast majority of over 16s stated their gender is the same as their biological sex making all toilets in [department] effectively unisex is not a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

We propose that one male and one female toilet are repurposed as Unisex toilets, which anyone can use, and all other toilets are retained as single sex facilities. This is a proportionate response that reflects the vast majority of employees identify as their biological sex, protects women from harassment, voyeurism and sexual assault at work whilst also providing appropriate facilities for the small number of employees that identify as transgender or non-binary.