Dept for Ed abandoning schools over children confused about their sex.

[MrsOvertonsWindow]

A timely article from the Daily Mail quoting amongst others, the excellent Safe Schools Alliance about the total failure of the DfE to issue advice to schools about dealing with children confused about their sex. In the absence of this adult transactivists have stepped in with queer theory, anti safeguarding, adult centred "advice" that's doing so much harm to children:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11713447/Education-officials-accused-abandoning-teachers-opposed-pupils-changing-gender-young.html

My personal view is that if gender ideology is taught in school, then all sides should be taught- ie detransition/desistence should be covered with the clear message that it’s fine to change your mind. The risks of binding should be highlighted and the possible links to underlying issues and unknowns of the medical pathway should be included.

Schools should follow the lead of the proposed interim NHSE service specs and view social transition as treatment which should not be supported without a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and under clinical supervision. This would completely stop schools supporting social transition without parental awareness and give parents a chance to obtain advice.

You obviously can’t stop a peer group from using preferred name/pronouns, but you can ensure staff do not do anything to give the message that the child is actually the opposite sex or that the parents are unsupportive of the child if they don’t support a social transition.

Do you think that staff should be prevented from using preferred pronouns?

Rogdmum

I don’t think staff should use preferred pronouns unless it is clinically advised.

Should clarify, I think there are very very few situations where a school should use preferred pronouns. For example, I think there is an argument that where the child is a school refuser unless pronouns are used (and I know a few parents in this situation), then I can see a case for it- if I’m being honest, we probably would have agreed under those circumstances.

But then that's just a carrot for the child to threaten school refusal and potentially cause unnecessary conflict between the child, parents and school.

As for clinical advice - who would be qualified to give this advice? School counsellor? GP? We know what the waiting times are to be seen by gender clinics. And there will be many teachers unhappy at what would be seen as deliberately misgendering a young trans person.

There need not be any 'mis-gendering'. The child's name can just be used instead of any pronouns.

I am wondering whether schools need to just take a very hands off approach to social transition. Of course, if a child is distressed for reasons they say relate to gender identity then they are given the equivalent support for any child that is distressed for other reasons. But after that then schools could try treating it like a vegan child: 'thanks for letting us know, there are menu choices to suit as follows'

So: 'thanks for letting us know, here is the gender neutral toilet and changing facilities they can use if they do not wish to use the one matching their sex'.

Name changes - same policy as for other students wanting to use a nickname or middle name.

Pronouns - n/a (see above)

What else is there for schools to do?

A child saying that they have gender identity needs to matter to a school as much as a child saying they are vegan or are converting to Islam.

Some secondary school teachers teach hundreds of student, I simply don't think it's fair for them to remember different pronouns.

@rogdmum · Today 15:39

Did you listen to PM on Monday which included a mother who refused to use pronouns. Her daughter desisted later.

"I am wondering whether schools need to just take a very hands off approach to social transition". Agreed LeafStamp.

Adults working in schools are not qualified in socially transitioning children, counselling them about which sex they might be or even discussing their sexuality. School systems use boundaries to keep adult role clear and children safe. Schools observe and refer in safeguarding - they don't investigate. They don't initiate mental health interventions with self harmers or children with suicidal ideation - that's dangerous. They refer to qualified professionals.

Yet adults with a vested interest in transitioning other people's children have been allowed to undermine / deskill professionals in order to transition children for their own benefit.

It's as fucking dangerous as it could be and the government's failure to tackle this for years is shameful.

What else is there for schools to do?

Yes, exactly.

Re school refusers. IME the children who are school refusers are in very troubled places anyway and gender has become one more layer and for some parents, if that is what will get their child into school, they will accept name/pronouns used in that environment. There are plenty schools that don’t support social transition without parental permission and I haven’t seen any evidence of school refusers without a particularly complex background anyway.

We are all walking a tightrope of keeping our children stable within our families (often while schools are giving them the clear message that we are unsupportive parents by not affirming) and not alienating them. For that reason, I’m not particularly interested in teachers being unhappy at misgendering- every teacher who affirms any child who is using a trans identity as a maladaptive coping mechanism or way of escape as they hate themselves, is doing harm. For that latter child, all they are doing is telling that they are right to hate themselves.Teachers see a snapshot, not the full picture and are not qualified to make decisions as to whether or not to support a psycho-social treatment.

NHSE have made it clear that there will be change. I would expect that there will be training developed which will outline in more detail who will diagnose gender dysphoria and how determination will be made as to which children should be supported in a social transition. My gut is that this will be very few children indeed, given the lack of evidence. When this is in place I think schools would be hard pushed to go against the NHS- the potential liability alone should put staff off.

Scrolling Yes, I did listen to that interview. I though both came off very well and clearly they’d been through a lot as a family.

Perhaps Keegan has a trans child or other relative. I read somewhere a comment from councillors/senior police officers/community leaders (those sorts of people) that they were treading a difficult line as they were under so much pressure from their own children and other young people who were totally in thrall to the entire trans narrative that to stand up to the trans lobby would mean losing their child completely to a so-called rainbow family just waiting in the wings.

There is a thread on here about someone trying to retrieve her daughter from the clutches of a possible abusive relationship - what would you do if your public stance against indoctrination would result in the destruction of your relationship with your child? The lobby's hooks are so well embedded everywhere.

Do you think that staff should be prevented from using preferred pronouns?

* - Adults working in schools are not qualified in socially transitioning children*

Yes, and what about all the other children? Teachers should not be gaslighting them that Billy is a "she".

There’s three choices for schools:

1. Support the social transition for any child who wants it, with or without parental awareness/permission (too many schools at present)
2. Don’t support the social transition of any child.
3. Support some children who wish to socially transition

The first option is a massive breach of safeguarding. Whether pro-affirmation teachers recognise it or not, social transition is not suitable for all children and will do harm. Where the school is supporting but the parents aren’t, divide is created within families and the child’s sense of stability within the family unit is undermined as they are given the message that their parents are unsupportive of them as a child (as their identity becomes themself). This can lead t9 a whole host of additional mental health problems in what is already a vulnerable child.

The second option could be argued for by the fact that there is no evidence base to support social transition- what we do know is that social transition can lead to persistence. I’m not convinced it’s workable at the moment- too many teachers would push back on it. There needs to be a massive mid shift in understanding first.

The third is what I suspect will happen in the much promised guidance, but there will need to be fair criteria for determining which children are supported in their social transition and which aren’t. It will be a nightmare for schools otherwise (and probably still a bit of a nightmare). Should it be based on parental permission? Or clinical advice? Or what? Teachers are not qualified to make the decision.

it’s a mess and too many children are being harmed by it.

it’s a mess and too many children are being harmed by it.

Totally this.

Then, frankly, those people need to find other jobs.

Then, frankly, those people need to find other jobs.

I couldn't agree more! Someone has to be the adult here.

An anonymous account by a schoolgirl in the Mail:

What it's really like to be a pupil today as trans hysteria grips our schools: One 14-year-old reveals girls wearing breast binders in class, teachers claiming Lady Macbeth was non-binary and 'transphobes' threatened with strangulation

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-11729001/What-like-pupil-today-trans-hysteria-grips-schools-One-14-year-old-girl-speaks-out.html

Does anyone know if there are guidelines in the pipework, for this?

The guidelines have been promised for months now yet have completely failed to materialise.

Was supposed to be before Christmas, then the new year, and now it's March.

This is pretty standard for the DfE tbf.

Thank you. Is this is writing anywhere?

GK keeps saying there will be a long consultation on this. Has anyone sent her Time To Think? I might do so.

Schools should be focussing on a message of love your body / feel comfortable in yourself. Gender expression is simply self expression. Sex is binary.

www.tes.com/magazine/news/secondary/schools-need-dfe-transgender-guidance-urgently-says-spielman this from November says it was due before Christmas

www.tes.com/magazine/news/general/minister-denies-foot-dragging-over-schools-transgender-guidance This end Jan says still not done... now we're in March.