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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Raquel Rosario Sanchez has won her case against Bristol Students’ Union !

98 replies

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/02/2023 19:35

Another step on the road to restoring women's rights and free speech.
The Telegraph report that Bristol's Students’ Union (SU) having previously "disciplined" Women Talk Back (WTB), its own feminist group, for excluding male-born trans women from talks on rape and sexual assault have backed down in an out of court settlement.

The union has admitted that “affiliated clubs and societies may lawfully offer single-sex services and be constituted as single-sex associations” under the Equality Act.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/04/feminist-student-societies-universities-can-exclude-trans-women/

I'm sure the Guardian will report on this shortly 🙄

OP posts:
TightFistedWozerk · 04/02/2023 22:59

Oh YESSSSSSS this is superb news, well done Raquel.

xxyzz · 04/02/2023 23:04

Fantastic - so pleased for her, after all she's been through.

Does anyone have a link to an archived copy of the article, please?

Stardu · 04/02/2023 23:04

Great news!

I wonder if the BBC will cover this. I expect they’ll be too busy writing graphic descriptions of blow by blow gore about overseas wars.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/02/2023 23:04

deeperthanallroses · 04/02/2023 22:36

I thought I remembered her losing and was gutted for her and what that meant generally - is this an appeal that they’ve settled? Does anyone know what impact it will have if any on future cases since there’s no judgement? Brilliant they made that statement.

This was a case against the bullying student union. She lost her case against the university who apparently have no responsibility to protect students like her from bullying.

It seems as if this case was dependent on the interpretation of the law that clubs and societies may lawfully offer single-sex services and be constituted as single-sex associations. That interpretation that Stonewall and various bungling legal bods have been insisting for years is wrong and that single sex anything is transphobic and illegal?

OP posts:
mrshoho · 04/02/2023 23:08

Fair play to Raquel. Excellent news 👏

omen6666 · 04/02/2023 23:25

Rosario unfortunately hasn’t won, she lost her claim for sex discrimination, negligence and breach of contract last year, this is a totally separate issue at the same university

LaughingPriest · 04/02/2023 23:55

Rosario unfortunately hasn’t won, she lost her claim for sex discrimination, negligence and breach of contract last year, this is a totally separate issue at the same university

As I understand it, the thing you describe was a totally separate case from what OP describes - this is about the SU. Still, I'd be interested to read more as I am not up to speed on the ins and outs of this SU case.

omen6666 · 05/02/2023 00:25

LaughingPriest · 04/02/2023 23:55

Rosario unfortunately hasn’t won, she lost her claim for sex discrimination, negligence and breach of contract last year, this is a totally separate issue at the same university

As I understand it, the thing you describe was a totally separate case from what OP describes - this is about the SU. Still, I'd be interested to read more as I am not up to speed on the ins and outs of this SU case.

That’s the point I am making Rosario hasn’t won nothing as she wasn’t part of this claim that the WTB brought against the student union, way too many people across social media, including the OP here with their post, are confusing Rosie’s tribunal claim with this a totally different claim because the article includes a reference to Rosie.

Ramblingnamechanger · 05/02/2023 05:32

So pleased to hear this, well done Raquel…another brick in the crumbling wall.

Ramblingnamechanger · 05/02/2023 05:34

Even if this was not a victory personally for Raquel it is all part of the dismantling of stupid anti women policies.

aweegc · 05/02/2023 05:40

I'm pleased she's won this. But she's gone through so much with the other case (and no doubt this) that the individual cost is too high for me to really celebrate.

The university ruling needs to surely be overturned.

And perhaps "a guide to universities that are safe to send your daughters to" needs to be published, to highlight places like Bristol. It wouldn't be too onerous, or require much digging: could be probably be printed on a side of A5.

Signalbox · 05/02/2023 10:24

Does anyone cleverer than me understand how this fits with the Haldane decision? It seems to contradict it. Also the article says it sets a precedent. How does that work if it was settled out of court?

IcakethereforeIam · 05/02/2023 19:42

I noticed this article in today's Observer. About the government's meh response to a petition asking that Universities should have a statutory duty of care for their students.

I could be mistaken but, iirc, this is why Raquel's claim against her university failed. I recall being amazed that there was no d.o.c.

I'd noticed the petition and hoped it did well but obviously the concern of the people behind the petition is the staggering number of suicides amongst students.

www.theguardian.com/education/2023/feb/05/parents-horrified-by-response-to-petition-after-suicide-of-bristol-student

The petition expires on 19th March, currently around 19k signatures. I think it's worth supporting.

There's a link in the article.

howard97A · 06/02/2023 08:45

I hope that WTB don't encounter too many TRA hurdles when they re-apply for affiliation.

RaquelRosarioSanchez · 07/02/2023 21:44

Dear women,

I am stopping by to thank you for your very kind messages. The other claimants on the Women Talk Back! legal case have also been reading your messages on the Mumsnet Board and found them incredibly moving. I told them: "wherever it says my name, know that they mean all of us." You obviously didn't wrote them directly for us, but we've all taken great strength from the support we've received from women, here and elsewhere.

Today marks a year since the start of my trial for #RaquelvBristolUni, which took place from Feb 7th-14th, 20212. As you know, I was unsuccessful in that legal case. In the aftermath, I forgot to share my statement for that outcome here on Mumsnet, so its here, just in case. I haven't been able to read it again, but I am sure it has stood the test of time!

While I am very grateful for your solidarity throughout a period of my life that was so incredibly challenging, please be reassured that I am in a much better place now so no need to worry anymore. At the moment, I am back in the women's sector as a front-line practitioner working with vulnerable women, including some women in prison. I should also be finishing my PhD this year, with my thesis exploring the experiences and direct commentary of men who pay for sex, so the purchasing side of prostitution. My writing career is going very, very well too, which is massively exciting. While I don't have a lot of free time these days, I always make a point to check this board a few times a week to stay updated on everything that's happening... and to learn a ton from the top-notch insights of the women here! But please know that (aside from some unfortunate fatigue and brain-fog that is likely to be long-COVID), I am in a much happier, healthier place both in my personal and in my professional life.

Thank you all for absolutely everything. The moral support, the encouragement and the gardening. I am so pleased I've made you proud with this superb resolution!

Below, I am sharing the statement on the outcome of our Women Talk Back! legal case:

"Statement on the Protection of Single-Sex Services and Spaces

We are delighted that the Bristol SU has made the decision to update their policies to confirm that single-sex services and women-only spaces, like Women Talk Back!, are lawful. In two statements, released on 13 January 2023, the Bristol SU stated:

“In accordance with, and as defined in, the Equality Act 2010, affiliated clubs and societies may lawfully offer single sex services and be constituted as single sex associations, where this is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, in accordance with the exceptions set out in the Equality Act. WTB! could, should they wish to do so, re-apply for affiliation to the Union on that basis. In doing so, WTB! would set out in their constitution the Equality Act 2010 definition of ‘women’ being ‘a female of any age’ instead of the byelaws definition.”

Unfortunately, not all institutions are willing to create or modify their existing policies to explicitly acknowledge that it is lawful to offer single-sex services and spaces. Which is why all remaining litigation funds crowdfunded from the public in our account will be redirected to support Sarah, a survivor of male violence, who is pursuing legal action against Survivors’ Network, the Rape Crisis Centre for Sussex. Sarah is challenging the service for refusing to provide a female-only peer support group for women who experience sexual abuse. We encourage similar organisations to follow the lead of the Bristol SU and recognise that single-sex services, spaces and associations are both lawful and hold a valuable place in society.

While much of the broader debate about sex and “gender identity” can feel abstract, our experience trying to justify and maintain the female-only nature of our feminist society has been anything but. Protecting the single-sex exceptions which we rely upon to operate, in a real-world incident and faced with sudden confrontation, represented a frightening experience which has negatively impacted all of us. This is particularly true for our President Raquel Rosario Sánchez, who was tasked with upholding our right to privacy, safety and dignity in a practical setting.

We are forever grateful to the public for their words of encouragement and for making this case viable through their donations. We are equally grateful to our lawyers, solicitor Elizabeth McGlone from didlaw and barrister Spencer Keen from Old Square Chambers, for their guidance and support throughout this process. Both the public and our lawyers have been instrumental in ensuring that today, the right to single-sex services and women-only associations is upheld at the Bristol SU.

As we look forward, it is heartening to connect with feminists across the UK who are becoming organised, setting their own collectives while holding women-only meetings and public events where they can discuss issues that affect their lives. We feel optimistic that this positive resolution will encourage an environment where it is easier to breathe for women like us in academia. While we wish our time at university had been less contentious and more welcoming of feminists who defend sex-based rights, we feel proud of what we are achieving, both individually and as a collective. As claimants, we want to express that it has been the honour of a lifetime for us to contribute to the long but steadfast defence of single-sex services and spaces for women."

Raquel Rosario Sanchez has won her case against Bristol Students’ Union !
SidewaysOtter · 07/02/2023 22:02

Thank you @RaquelRosarioSanchez, just…thank you Flowers

Tallisker · 07/02/2023 22:12

Thank you Raquel.

I love your line drawing logo, so simple, so obviously female ❤️

BettyFilous · 07/02/2023 22:20

What a fantastic update Raquel! I am so pleased to hear you are in a better place. Donating your unspent legal funds to Sarah’s rape crisis case is perfect too. 👏

MrsOvertonsWindow · 07/02/2023 22:26

Wonderful to hear from you Raquel:
"As claimants, we want to express that it has been the honour of a lifetime for us to contribute to the long but steadfast defence of single-sex services and spaces for women".

I know I speak for countless women on here in sending you and your sisters our collective admiration and thanks for refusing to be silenced and for taking on those determined to silence women.
Brava to you all Flowers Flowers

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 08/02/2023 00:33

Does anyone cleverer than me understand how this fits with the Haldane decision? It seems to contradict it. Also the article says it sets a precedent. How does that work if it was settled out of court?

This misunderstanding about the Haldane decision keeps getting repeated. Nothing Lady Haldane said changes the situation that has existed since the EA was drafted.

That is that a trans man can legally be a woman for the purposes of marriage etc., BUT and please remember this, the EXEMPTIONS to these legal change continue to exist.

The Single Sex Exemptions are what allows women's aid and rape crisis provide women only services ie biological females.

The issue is that so many institutions, such as prisons choose not to use the exemptions.

re Bristol SU decision it is another example of how hopeless all the so called legal experts giving evidence at the Women and Equality Committee were as the lecturer in law (a man called Robin, or Rupert) specifically said associations were not covered by the single sex exemptions.

Although of more concern is the wimpey not very clear statements by the woman who is supposedly going to defend Sarah. I wasn't sure in her giving "evidence" to the Committee she was slanting it to promote the campaign she is part of or she really believes that women struggle to implement the SSE. That is a direct insult to all the women's groups who have being doing without the support of women who have only realised in the last year of so what the issue is.

Though I suspect Survivors Network will try and argue their way out of it by saying their funders (Brighton Council) didn't require them to provide single sex services in accepting their bid. And if there is a legal case it is against the funders who are supposed to allocate funding in a proportional way to need. ie most victims of sexual violence are women, and as the EA examples says, women who have been raped need to get support in a space where trans women are not present.

Helleofabore · 08/02/2023 08:06

Thank you @RaquelRosarioSanchez and WTB!

A very long and drawn out process for you all. But thank you and congratulations on the decision.

BenCoopersSupportWren · 08/02/2023 09:07

What a fantastic update Raquel, more power to your writing elbow (as it were) 🍷

mrshoho · 08/02/2023 10:49

Lovely to read your inspiring update @RaquelRosarioSanchez . You stood up and made such a powerful change. WELL DONE 👏. So proud of all the women across the UK who have pushed back and continue to push against this damaging ideology.

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