Prof Jo Phoenix on R4 Antisocial 3/2/23

[WarriorN]

The prof is on tomorrow's programme

I’ll be on BBC Radio 4’s Anti-Social tomorrow talking about pronouns, risk assessment and the issues around transgender prison placement policy.

Should be good...!

Shame WH are too chicken.

Prof Phoenix is being informative and incredibly measured. Including talking about statistics that suit her case and then pointing out the problems with their reliability.

I started off being ‘kind’ and just thinking there were no issues with trans identities, and honestly I thought all the fuss about bathrooms was a little silly with more serious things in the world.

However listening to this, I can just feel myself get more and more angry. The emotional blackmail arguments that because trans women might be vulnerable, that follow that women have to be human shields at their own risk? Grrr…

But also, this is so fundamental. That trans women might not even be recorded as such, because of GRC that we have no way of measuring or recording facts.

I now believe that NO ONE can identify as something that they are not. They can ‘try it on’, they can experiment. No problems with that. But we are becoming an unstable society if we don’t even know, if we reject facts. It has nothing to do with not allowing difference, allowing and respecting men who want to dress as women etc, but everything to do with understanding patterns of what is happening in our societies, who is the most vulnerable, why, what helps. If there is a pattern for example in prisons in trans women, we will have no idea because we have no data to discuss, analysis, understand. For women, if we can no longer know who is biologically a woman, we cannot even know if they are being discriminated against, whether risks are increasing.

Jo Phoenix - There is a pattern of criminality that applies to men ie crimes of sex and violence which is not changed by gender identity (paraphrase). This is being put to Steph who is rambling...

The Scottish correspondent on the programme: The case conference process in prisons to assess transwomen prisoners. It's only about the safety and dignity of the transwoman prisoner. It doesn't deal with risks about women, and in fact women aren't mentioned at all. It's clearly marked as having come from the Scottish Trans Alliance.

I'm listening now and they are confirming that the "assesment" for men in women's prisons does not mention the danger to the women at all. It's all about hormones and laser removal, health of the prisoner...

I feel sick.

This is brilliant! A proper grown up look at the evidence. Just confirmed that the SPS risk assessment on TW did not consider the risk to women!

Antisocial previously looked at trans issues and I thought it was dire and biased. This is so much better. They’ll actually bothered looking at facts and data!

Adam Fleming: What went wrong with Isla Bryson?

Putting to one side Prof Phoenix's measured terms, I'd say that I'm not convinced that anything did as far as the processes were concerned. What went wrong was the timing meant there was huge publicity and the public were horrified by what they were seeing.

Here's Steph talking about the risks:

The programme ended with Prof Phoenix speaking directly with Steph Richards. She spoke as though she was speaking to a child or to someone with learning difficulties. It wasn't condescending, it was justified.

I can't believe he cut her off just as she was saying that the process needed to include representation of women s well as trans people!!

I'm pretty sure that Bryson's victims would prefer that the man who raped them was referred to as 'he'.

Do the BBC always do what rapists prefer? Do they really think their feelings are more important than those of their victims?

Steph states 'I don't know anything about that' regarding incidents gainst women d then later references the influence of Karen White's attacks in changed English policies.

Disingenuous dickhead.

I was screaming at the radio, but think the excellent proff did a bang up job there!

Yes, despite all the ‘I’m for women’s rights’ rhetoric, this showed what Steph really thinks about putting women at risk.

I heard this. Basically unless a woman is assaulted or raped, reports it, it's investigated, the offender is charged and convicted...not only did it never happen but a woman has to have been avoidably harmed to prove what is obvious to everyone who doesn't live in a Stonewall-soaked online world.

You can see why they were all for #nodebate. Nothing makes any sense under questioning.

This should be challenged. Who wrote the guidelines that say the BBC must not tell the truth? That make people think these are women’s crimes? What assessment was made of the impact of false reporting on women?
**
I believe we have trans media watch led by Helen belcher OBE to thank for this. HB has been working on this for years. It’s like everything we see coming out now, behind the scenes people like HB have been consistently lobbying and pushing the TRA agenda; the vast majority of ppl have no idea how influential they’ve been

THIS! x 1000.

whilst I was very very pleased to hear this on mainstream radio - the impacts of trans on women was still being ignored!

It’s quite revealing listening to Steph, she just does not get it at all. Asking for more trans lobbying group involvement as the answer to the problem?

This shows zero understanding and is completely from a trans bubble. Risk assessment is a serious business, or should be. Lobbying groups should not be anywhere near a risk assessment!

Yes @WalkthisWayUK I thought this comment was naive at best…. At worst… just dangerous.

Adam Fleming like many make BBC broadcasters is dismissive of women’s concerns sadly. Ugh.

Jo Phoenix came across brilliantly - clear, measured and taking sense. Made my day to hear this on the beeb. I didn’t hear all of the article, but I hope she got her job back?

Steph's approach to managing risk is to identify the most important group (clue: it ain't women), set things up to suit that group, and then firefight the problems as they arise.

I mean it should be challenged life on air. It is the BBC laying down a partisan position for the debate.

I genuinely think the pink leggings played a not insignificant part

I thought Jo Phoenix was brilliant. Clear and calm and managed to get some good points across.

It was interesting that the BBC actually did some research. They went away and looked at the prison risk assessment and had the relevant stats. It’s a shame I’m surprised that they bothered, given that they don’t normally.

Just listening now. Hadn’t come across Steph Richards before - but sex immediately obvious when you hear them speak

Need to catch up as was distracted. So glad Jo was given the chance to say what she could; bbc (or Fleming?) still being awkward and annoying about reality from what I can tell but yes, chip, chip, chip...