Elite sports people speaking up!

[Signalbox]

There seems to be an increasing number of sports people speaking up about the problem of males completing in women's sports which is positive. Thought it might be useful to have a thread of those who are risking sticking their heads above the parapet. Obviously the likes of Sharon Davies, Mara Yamauchi and Martina Navratilova have been bravely doing this for sometime but now we appear to have a few current athletes as well who are prepared to risk the mob to ensure women have fair competition. Is it too much to hope for that there will be a snowball effect?

A 'Female at birth' category might be problematical concerning cases like Semenya or other rare DSD's whose diagnosis (if there is one) might not become apparent until puberty. Especially if fame and money, as well as ideology, mean such diagnoses are obfuscated.

So we need "biological female", backed up by genetic testing. We already have routine banned substances testing.

I would support...
Name of category: Women/Girls.
Eligibility: female only
Proof of eligibility: original birth certificate stating female
OR in disputed cases or loss of original certificate, chromosome test.

The name of the category and eligibility for it are different issues. If the category was called female or even female at birth but males with a legal sex of F were eligible for it, it wouldn't help.

I don't support calling it "female" - women or girls for human beings means "female" anyway - unless you are a genderist. No pointless concessions for irrelevant GI, I would argue.

Yes eligibility needs to be informed by a sex test. Going by birth “gender” is completely unreliable especially now they are scouting for dsd males and men can alter their birth certificate so easily.

It's infuriating that this level of thought has to be put in to keeping men out of women's sports isn't it?😠

I think the level of stringency should rise with the degree of professionalism - a relaxed, fun, amateur level of participation should be possible without having to do swab tests. Clearly-stated rules that THIS COMPETITION IS FOR BIOLOGICAL GIRLS/WOMEN ONLY* should work, in all but the most pushy and irritating of cases🙄but at least this wording would highlight the ineligibility of the interlopers.

Where titles, medals and prize money are concerned, or where it's a professional-level sport, being tested for your eligibility to take part in women's competitions should be just as much part of your job as being tested for drugs.
Unlike drug-testing, which is ongoing, you'd only have to prove once, with a simple swab test, that you are eligible, so it's not a huge ask.

We shouldn't have to be doing all this, but the more the phrase 'biological woman' is circulated, the more it highlights the clarity and fairness of women's sports being unequivocally for women, i.e. people with XX chromosomes [or to be absolutely precise, people without Y chromosomes].

*I've just thought of adding 'by participating in this event you are accepting that it is for biological women/girls only'. Not legally binding or anything, but another way of emphasising that if you are a biological male, WTF are you doing here??

See, I grew up where it was called ‘female’ generally with an age group. The toilets generally had an ‘f’ or an ‘m’. I don’t find it dehumanising.

I think ‘female’ removes all this ambiguity that has allowed male people to demand and achieve access.

Also, when do you do the cross to ‘women’? 16? 17? 18? As a 16 year old I found it pretty crap to be still labelled a ‘girl’.

Helleofabore

I didn't say it was dehumanising, I don't think it is dehumanising. I think that woman/girl = female and female = woman/girl when you are talking about human beings. No women (or girls) are not female. Woman and girl are biological sex categories. GI is irrelevant to sport. Age is very relevant to sport. Female rather than woman (or girl) carries the implication that you can be a woman (or a girl) and not be female.

The girls/women category divider depends on the sport. In some sports it's 14 years old, others 16, etc. Some girls of 16 are good enough to compete in the women's category for gymnastics. Some girls of 17 are in the girls' category for tennis. Sometimes, even if a 14-year-old is good enough to compete with women, she is held back for her own protection if the dividing age is 16. But no adult female (woman) is eligible for the girls' category, of course.
In any case I'm putting forward women/girls as the name of the category, not the eligibility criteria which should be female only, whatever age range it covers.

Edited to add name of poster

I think ‘female’ removes all this ambiguity that has allowed male people to demand and achieve access.

Thing is they use female now as well don’t they? Even Cass used “trans female” in the Cass Review.

They have annexed that label, yes.

However, I believe it was leveraging off ‘woman’ that people like Ivy/McKinnon wedged open the events. Using that language.

Either way, we have seen that they try to justify it by saying ‘I am a woman, I should be treated like I am a woman in sport.’ It doesn’t win sympathy saying ‘I am male and should be in the female event’. They lose hearts with that language.

They wouldn't say that, though. They would say "I am a woman, therefore I am female, therefore I should be in the female event." Or even, "I am a woman, I am a biological entity, therefore I am a biological woman, therefore I should be in the female event."
There's no point in ceding the word to them. Stick with woman/girl and make sure the eligibility criteria reflect that, I say.

Yes I agree. It needs to be backed up by a genetic test.

Chromosome test rather.

It is a tough one really. Because this forced repurposing of language.

And to be fair, Ivy / McKinnon has used both. Ivy / McKinnon has definitely used the 'woman' leverage though and if I remember correctly, this video was not far from the time of where Ivy / McKinnon presented to the IOC.

THIS NEEDS A VPN SET TO THE USA TO SEE THE VIDEO

https://news.sky.com/story/trans-cyclist-rachel-mckinnon-defends-her-right-to-race-in-womens-competitions-11838131

In the video, McKinnon says "if you think that transwomen are men are men, then you think that there is an unfair advantage."

at around 37 seconds into the video: "We care about sport, it is central to society. If you want to say, 'well, I believe you're a woman for all of society, except this massive central part that is sport, then, that is not fair. Fairness is the inclusion of transwomen."

And here is Emily Bridges:

www.itv.com/news/2024-02-20/transgender-cyclist-emily-bridges-says-she-will-fight-competition-ban-in-court

Bridges said the policy amounts to a ban from elite cycling.

"A ban is a ban. You can say you can compete in the open category, but we’re women - we should be able to race in the women’s category," she said."

And don't forget all the statements about the male people with DSDs where they or their nation's sporting bodies declare they are 'women' too.

https://x.com/Riley_Gaines_/status/1721896581396607132

Here is Caster Semenya in the above clip saying "being born with internal testicles, those don't make less of a woman".

It all comes down to the 'transwomen are women' mantra and how that is still being used. Because to them it is an easier prospect to convince people that 'women' is a gender identity than to now convince people they have changed sex.

I've seen Imane Khelif is going to fight professionally! Although until I see a report in a more thorough site (GBNews, Sun and Mirror so far) I'm reserving my opinion.

Submission to sex-testing would be a pre-condition for pro boxing, surely?

Oh, interesting! Must investigate further..
I wonder if the professional version of boxing will be as tolerant of men fighting women - the managers of elite women professional boxers might have something to say about that.

And there's the question of insurance..
That said, the history of boxing shows that there's always a ready supply of poor saps willing to go into the ring and take a beating for the money...

This is an interesting development.

Do female professional boxers get to reject bouts ?

Given the difficulty transman Patricio Manuel has had getting fights (total bouts: 4 in 6 years), male professional boxers apparently can.

You're not going to get rich on four bouts in six years. Unless you have a profitable side gig; modelling, TV, etc.

Sorry, my mistake

Total 4 bouts since "transitioning", only 1 as a professional.

Which resulted in a technical knockout after 21 seconds when fighting what one one boxing site calls "the most accomplished opponent he’s faced to date" (masculine pronoun because US).

That was early April this year, no bouts since.

Profile describes Manuel as "Boxer/Fighter | Consultant & Speaker". So subsisting on grifting / relying on partner's income, presumably.

Well, IK going professional definitely seems to be something that's been said, but the rest of the article is more interesting

https://archive.ph/mVTm5 bypass the paywall

https://www.thetimes.com/sport/boxing/article/imane-khelif-profressional-boxing-warren-hearn-c7dkjqrn5

Doesn't seem that there's going to be women's boxing at the next Olympics. Whatever my personal feelings about the sport, it seems unfair on the women (XX) who've trained hard to have it taken from them.

Also, World Boxing are trying to get IOC recognition and are working on gender eligibility. Decision expected next year.

Thanks Cake

Interesting some promoters have not offered after saying they might.

Incidentally, World Boxing is a different organisation to the World Boxing Organisation for anyone who missed that discussion in the many threads about the Olympics.

Looks like all boxing (male and female) is omitted from the next Olympics because of the row over the federation - nothing to do with Imane or this controversy.

Hearn previously said he would be interested in promoting Khelif “if the facts were laid out and it was in a position where there is no reason why this individual shouldn’t compete as a female”

There's the rub- if proven to be female, which I think we can all agree with.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13998009/medals-female-athletes-lost-trans-opponents-report-highlighting-womens-loss-fair-opportunity.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=social-twitter_mailonline

That's the bloke what peaked me.